View Poll Results: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

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    51 73.91%
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    7 10.14%
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Thread: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

  1. #201
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Which was actually brought up in the interviews with the Taliban where they claimed he was doing this - that they thought his instruction was sort of basic and poor, because they knew all that stuff already.



    .....that is a broader brush than you may want to paint with. There are plenty of stupid / unskilled / untaught VEO members and affiliates out there.
    Let me clarify then. There's no shortage of clever folks in those groups who have long known their way around improvised explosives.
    If I didn't respond to your diatribe, it's possible you may have
    engaged in revisionism or broad sweeping generalizations.
    I don't have time for either, and you're probably on my IGNORE list.

  2. #202
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    Let me clarify then. There's no shortage of clever folks in those groups who have long known their way around improvised explosives.
    Which ones?

  3. #203
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    .....it is an excuse to point out that the Secretary of Defense is part of an embattled administration?

    of course Hagel is going to defend his boss. It would be extremely problematic if he didn't. Hell, he might very well deserve to be fired if he didn't. I'll put the actual testimony of the veterans who were there against a political guy defending another political guy any day of the week as far as "acknowledgement" goes.
    The trouble with this is we can say this all the time with anyone, thus never having to ever think or make a case. It's lazy.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #204
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Because he is one. He shouldn't be punished as one until he's been tried, sure. But it is the act, not the conviction that makes him one.
    OK, so you are prejudging him. I regret indulging you thinking that you were going to correct my understanding that being a deserter is a charge that you must convicted of. I thought you were going to produce some type of evidence that rather than a charge that must be proven in court that with some documentation that desertion was an administrative determination. I humbled myself to be education but rather was slapped by someone that simply wanted to argue their impressions. You did not know you just, like so many on this board, found the facts inconvenient for your argument. So, my bad for indulging you when yous should not have been indulged. Let me restate:

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Of course Americans believe that no one can be a traitor or deserter without a fair trial and a fair trial can not be had without the opportunity of the accused to face his accuser and have the opportunity to testify on his/her behalf

    What do you believe in your country?
    Back to square 136.

  5. #205
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not really. In the military the standard is preponderance of evidence, not without-a-doubt.



    No. It simply requires that that probability be established to the satisfaction of the reviewing officers.
    Thanks. I figured they'd have to at least talk to the guy.

    Preponderance of evidence is standard for conviction and it is a lower standard than beyond-reasonable-doubt, but they aren't related to presumption of innocence. Presumption of innocence means that when he walks into the courtroom we assume he's innocent and that prosecution needs to prove his guilt. The bar that the prosecution has to meet to prove his guilt is preponderance of evidence.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  6. #206
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Thanks. I figured they'd have to at least talk to the guy.

    Preponderance of evidence is standard for conviction and it is a lower standard than beyond-reasonable-doubt, but they aren't related to presumption of innocence. Presumption of innocence means that when he walks into the courtroom we assume he's innocent and that prosecution needs to prove his guilt. The bar that the prosecution has to meet to prove his guilt is preponderance of evidence.
    For a court of law? Absolutely. That doesn't mean that the rest of us have to suspend our ability to apply logic.

  7. #207
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The trouble with this is we can say this all the time with anyone, thus never having to ever think or make a case. It's lazy.
    No. We can only say this with people who carefully pile up their serialized gear, pretty openly admit that they intend to desert, and then actually desert.

  8. #208
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    OK, so you are prejudging him. I regret indulging you thinking that you were going to correct my understanding that being a deserter is a charge that you must convicted of.
    To be punished for, yes. To be guilty of, no. OJ also probably killed his wife. That he was able to afford the kind of defense lawyer that would keep him from going to jail does not change the facts, only whether or not he was punished.

    ]I thought you were going to produce some type of evidence that rather than a charge
    The evidence is pretty publicly accessible. This guy wasn't captured from a blown up vehicle or while laying wounded in a firefight. He carefully and intentionally piled up his serialized gear, grabbed the stuff he would need for the hike he intended to take, and then walked off the FOB. Outside of "aliens were mind-controlling him", there simply isn't an alternate way to answer the facts. His actions were planned and deliberate, and they ended with him intentionally and deliberately deserting his post.

  9. #209
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No. We can only say this with people who carefully pile up their serialized gear, pretty openly admit that they intend to desert, and then actually desert.
    People say all kinds of things they don't do. But I'm merely pointing your willingness to go with your "feelings" before getting all the facts in.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #210
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    People say all kinds of things they don't do. But I'm merely pointing your willingness to go with your "feelings" before getting all the facts in.
    Ah. Well then you can rest easy because the facts are what I am presenting. As opposed to you, who thus far have presented generally nothing.

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