View Poll Results: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

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Thread: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

  1. #141
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Whatever their circumstances, there were some who decided to stay.
    That is why US statements always referred to US personnel held against their will
    .



    If you are 'held', it is, by definition, against your will.

  2. #142
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    If someone clearly wants to leave it's not as if you are stronger with them in your ranks. All it really does by keeping them in your ranks is that the government feels as if everyone is doing what they want, but in the meantime this individual that want to leave is a liability and could very well be getting people killed.
    It's stuff like this that makes me wonder if there really is a massive cultural divide between the military/veteran community and the rest of the country.

    Suffice to say, this is wrong in several different ways.

    1. Soldiers do a lot more than just patrol. We had a guy who couldn't go out because of mental issues, for example, so we had him take care of administrative tasks that the company needed doing, freeing up another Marine who could go out to do so.
    2. Not wanting to be there is not the same as being ineffective at your job. I knew plenty of guys who got extended or deployed when they thought they shouldn't have been. They weren't incapable of engaging in combat, they were just pissed off at their circumstances.
    3. Every single servicemember knows that as soon as one goes missing, the primary mission of everyone in the area becomes finding them and getting them back. Bergdahl knew as soon as he was discovered that his former brothers would take any risk they had to to try to find them - he deliberately chose to increase the likelihood that they would be maimed or killed.

    The military is not like your civilian job.

  3. #143
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    If you are 'held', it is, by definition, against your will.
    A fair language point, but the words I cited were those used.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  4. #144
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    When was he convicted of desertion?

    I missed that news release.


    Do we still go by "innocent until proven guilty" ?

    I don't believe that this guy has had a trial yet.
    No he hasn't...that's just me giving MY OPINION. Of course I'm going on the word of several of his former soldier buddies who have stated unequivocally, that he deserted. Which I tend to believe since six other of his former platoon mates were murdered by the Taliban while they were out looking for the deserter. But you're correct about not having a trial... you can look back at the George Zimmerman case, and see how the black community and its sympathizers and the MS Media, had old George convicted of killing Trayvon.

    Have a good evening Shrub.
    Liberalismódividing up the EARNED wealth of honest, hard working and ingenious AMERICANS and giving it to the leeches who would rather waste their worthless lives living off the government teat.
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  5. #145
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It's stuff like this that makes me wonder if there really is a massive cultural divide between the military/veteran community and the rest of the country.

    Suffice to say, this is wrong in several different ways.

    1. Soldiers do a lot more than just patrol. We had a guy who couldn't go out because of mental issues, for example, so we had him take care of administrative tasks that the company needed doing, freeing up another Marine who could go out to do so.
    Don't they already have people for that?

    2. Not wanting to be there is not the same as being ineffective at your job. I knew plenty of guys who got extended or deployed when they thought they shouldn't have been. They weren't incapable of engaging in combat, they were just pissed off at their circumstances.
    Sure, that is true, but it's also true that the chances of a solider being ineffective at their job is increased if they don't want to be there or in the military at all.

    3. Every single servicemember knows that as soon as one goes missing, the primary mission of everyone in the area becomes finding them and getting them back. Bergdahl knew as soon as he was discovered that his former brothers would take any risk they had to to try to find them - he deliberately chose to increase the likelihood that they would be maimed or killed.
    It sounds like he was increasing the likelihood that his fellow soldiers would be maimed or killed before he left.

    The military is not like your civilian job.
    No, it's one when you are paid to kill or be killed and forced to do so even if you don't want to.

  6. #146
    Educator Paratrooper's Avatar
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    I think this question is too simplistic given that it is in regards to the Bergdahl situation. Obviously you try to recover them, but you can't just say at any cost.

    The 5 for 1 is a terrible idea if you consider that those five will rejoin the fight, rally enemy forces and lead to many more U.S. soldier deaths.

  7. #147
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Don't they already have people for that?
    Sure. People who could be on patrol. If you get a body that is just not up to that challenge, you rotate them to where their lack of ability isn't problematic, and you push the capable fighter forward.

    Sure, that is true, but it's also true that the chances of a solider being ineffective at their job is increased if they don't want to be there or in the military at all.
    Not really. Some of the people I learned the most from as a young grunt were also some of the most cynical embittered bastards I ever met.

    It sounds like he was increasing the likelihood that his fellow soldiers would be maimed or killed before he left.
    Actually it sounds like you have never deployed in an infantry unit. Which isn't a way to cut you down, it's just to point out that you don't really have much of a basis to make that claim on, here.

    No, it's one when you are paid to kill or be killed and forced to do so even if you don't want to.
    No. The military is different in many more ways than that, especially the infantry.

  8. #148
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is inaccurate. Americans believe that no one should be punished for being a traitor or a deserter without legal proceedings except in very special and narrowly defined cases. But you are a deserter or a traitor the moment you commit the deed.
    Perhaps I stand corrected with that nuance.. but I am not corrected without credible third party evidence. Who gets to determine that you did, indeed, commit the deed? You certainly can be declared AWOL, but it seems that being a deserter requires a higher level determination. While I might buy the idea that being a deserter is an administrative determination, I do not buy that with being a traitor. I think your argument falls apart here. Where does it say you can be determined to be a traitor without a trial? That makes no sense. I think we need a cite.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 06-06-14 at 12:44 AM.

  9. #149
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Perhaps I stand corrected with that nuance.. but I am not corrected without credible third party evidence. Your cite please.
    1. The man deserted his post and unit. There is no other plausible answer for why a man would lay out his gear for his leadership to log, take the materials he thought he would need to cross the mountains, and abandon his post. It wasn't the worlds' most complicated, longest sleep-walking event. Desertion is sort of obvious.

    2. Treason is not. There are reports out there that he aided the Taliban, teaching them small unit tactics and how to use phones for IED's. Given the reporting that is also available on his conversion to Islam and self-declaration that he was going to take part in Jihad, occasionally being allowed to carry weapons and the like, that is plausible, but probability is more difficult to determine.

  10. #150
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    Re: We Donít Leave Our Men or Women in Uniform Behind

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. The man deserted his post and unit. There is no other plausible answer for why a man would lay out his gear for his leadership to log, take the materials he thought he would need to cross the mountains, and abandon his post. It wasn't the worlds' most complicated, longest sleep-walking event. Desertion is sort of obvious.

    2. Treason is not. There are reports out there that he aided the Taliban, teaching them small unit tactics and how to use phones for IED's. Given the reporting that is also available on his conversion to Islam and self-declaration that he was going to take part in Jihad, occasionally being allowed to carry weapons and the like, that is plausible, but probability is more difficult to determine.
    I am not asking you to try and judge him. I am asking for third party evidence of how a man can be decreed a deserter and decreed a traitor without a trial.

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