Do you believe that America should pay reparations to African Americans?

Lursa said:

No progress huh?

I'd like some other opinions on that. I have my own, of course.

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It's not all or nothing.

Progress Slow on Racial Equality

Progress Slow on Racial Equality - CSMonitor.com

Despite the obvious advances, Klarman said that progress in racial equality is uneven. “Fifty years ago nobody could have dreamed that the last two secretaries of state would be black, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff would be black, and those are incredible changes,” he said, adding, “On the other hand, Hurricane Katrina told us what life is like for a lot of poor black people in cities and we haven’t done much to fix it, and I don’t think we’d tolerate it if those were white people.”


Klarman sees no end to the unfinished business of racial equality. “The issues have changed and the terms of debate have changed, but race issues are still everywhere,” he said.
• Reported By Ken Reitz

Klarman’s New Book Explores Uneven Road of Racial Equality in America 

Boo Radley said:

It's not all or nothing.

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That's right. THat's why I asked what your timetable was. What exactly are your expectations?

Lursa said:

That's right. THat's why I asked what your timetable was. What exactly are your expectations?

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I added a little more.

However, try to grasp that it doesn't have to be nothing to say it's largely been in ineffective. Add to it that you have whites, largely white males, making statements that it's over and blaming minorities. Much is written on thus, which is why I say more honest talk is needed.

MildSteel said:

The following is not well said



It's garbage because it ignores the FACT that SYSTEMIC GOVERNMENT RACISM was a big factor in creating the problem in the first place. Not only that, but it ignores the FACT that it took government intervention to stop the cruel injustices that were inflicted on blacks. Mr. Sowell, and other Uncle Toms like him appear to think that if they were alive during the time of Jefferson, Washington, and Madison, that they would be the equals of such slave owners and would have their own slaves working for them for free.

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You're right. Government racism that consigned black people to inferior status and treated them as inferiors who must be assisted and supplemented and guided and herded into government programs--told them they couldn't make it without government help. THAT is what has created the current cultural devastation in much of the black community and it has nothing to do with racism or segregation or institutional racism.

Navy Pride said:

If there is a black person who was a slave in 1865 and is still alive he or she should receive compensation otherwise no.

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I'm down with that idea.

OTOH, has anyone on this forum ever been paid for something that their grandparents did?

Boo Radley said:

I added a little more.

However, try to grasp that it doesn't have to be nothing to say it's largely been in ineffective. Add to it that you have whites, largely white males, making statements that it's over and blaming minorities. Much is written on thus, which is why I say more honest talk is needed.

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It certainly hasnt been largely ineffective. Are you kidding? Blacks have been well-integrated into society, esp. where the socio-economics are similar. In poverty-centric areas, the epidemic lack of opportunity is reflected across all in the neighborhood, trailer park, etc., not just the blacks. Some of the issues are perpetuated by expectations and reactions as well.

clownboy said:

No more than we should pay those of Irish, Italian, Mexican and Chinese descent. This is where PC screws everything up, there are very few true "African Americans", if any since we only recently began allowing dual citizenship. Munging the language causes this sort of nonsense.

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President Barack Obama is an African American.

One reason our country is Exceptional is because we are the only country that has African Americans, most of whom are just ordinary citizens.

Lursa said:

It certainly hasnt been largely ineffective. Are you kidding? Blacks have been well-integrated into society, esp. where the socio-economics are similar. In poverty-centric areas, the epidemic lack of opportunity is reflected across all in the neighborhood, trailer park, etc., not just the blacks. Some of the issues are perpetuated by expectations and reactions as well.

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The numbers tell a different story. Blacks still have worse unemployment, are still under represented in college, and still have troubles obtaining loans. Wealth is still largely held in the hands of whites.

I am just going to say this, even though its controversial. There is no doubt that slavery had a lasting impact. There is no doubt that segregation had a lasting impact. There is no doubt that racism is a problem even to this day. However, at the same time, African Americans have disproportionately benefited from various anti-poverty programs since the 60s to the tune of several trillion dollars. At this point the problem is more cultural than anything else. As LBJ would put it, they have been given a leg up, but at some point they have got to take it from here themselves. Frankly, its not like African Americans are doing great everywhere in the world but here. I can't think of a single country on earth with a significant black community where they all have their sh** together. Regardless of where in the world you go, regardless of a nation's policies, you will find higher poverty rates, higher crime rates, and higher rates of out of wedlock births in the black community. It is a problem that they will have to fix at a cultural level themselves.

That doesn't let the rest of society off the hook. We have policies like affirmative action and hate crime laws specifically because racism still exists. We also all have a vested interest in everyone in our society succeeding and getting a good education, but the black community cannot blame all their problems on everyone else either.

Boo Radley said:

The numbers tell a different story. Blacks still have worse unemployment, are still under represented in college, and still have troubles obtaining loans. Wealth is still largely held in the hands of whites.

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Again...what is your timetable? What are your expectations?

Considering the topic....would you see 'reparations' changing the pace of change?

Lursa said:

Again...what is your timetable? What are your expectations?

Considering the topic....would you see 'reparations' changing the pace of change?

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I've said no to reparations. However, I think policies need to be reconsidered. We must do a better job of educating minorities. A better job of fighting bias in the work world. A better job of teaching to fish, so to speak. And stop with declaring racism dead.

Boo Radley said:

I've said no to reparations. However, I think policies need to be reconsidered. We must do a better job of educating minorities. A better job of fighting bias in the work world. A better job of teaching to fish, so to speak. And stop with declaring racism dead.

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Only certain factions believe that racism is dead and I dont believe most people think that.

But there have been many many programs offered, many still offered....people start seeing, like you, that if they havent worked....do we need more time or take another direction with our programs and policies? Both I think.

Lursa said:

Only certain factions believe that racism is dead and I dont believe most people think that.

But there have been many many programs offered, many still offered....people start seeing, like you, that if they havent worked....do we need more time or take another direction with our programs and policies? Both I think.

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On that I can agree.

Boo Radley said:

The numbers tell a different story. Blacks still have worse unemployment, are still under represented in college, and still have troubles obtaining loans. Wealth is still largely held in the hands of whites.

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I am not a fan of diversity stats. I won't disagree with your statements.

Yet, lets look at diversity (blacks) on how they are represented in players in sports (NFL, NBA) for starters? Then if you look at the management staff, yep. Not so much.

Reminds me of when I was working and the admin head said that we did not have enough minorities and females in the fire program. I then asked was there enough white males in the admin assistant postitions or in public affairs (all female staff at the time). The admin head had no real answer to that. I basically told her that we should hire the best qualified we can get. No matter who they are.

Back to the OP. imo, we do not owe todays African Americans any reparations.

I used to. I don't any longer.

I still am waiting for my check for having to endure being a WASP male.

I mean, what a huge hardship I have had to endure being the most powerful group with the most rights.

The pressure to succeed is huge and I should be financially compensated for having to deal with this on a daily basis.

mike2810 said:

I am not a fan of diversity stats. I won't disagree with your statements.

Yet, lets look at diversity (blacks) on how they are represented in players in sports (NFL, NBA) for starters? Then if you look at the management staff, yep. Not so much.

Reminds me of when I was working and the admin head said that we did not have enough minorities and females in the fire program. I then asked was there enough white males in the admin assistant postitions or in public affairs (all female staff at the time). The admin head had no real answer to that. I basically told her that we should hire the best qualified we can get. No matter who they are.

Back to the OP. imo, we do not owe todays African Americans any reparations.

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All you done is show effects of discrimination.

Boo Radley said:

All you done is show effects of discrimination.

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yep. discrimination for all.

MildSteel said:

There is no group in the United States that was enslaved on a scale anywhere near Africans. Not only that, but after slavery right up to very recent US history, blacks suffered from institutionalized, structural, systemic, government racism that was designed to "keep n*gg*rs" in their place, to make them feel inferior, to psychologically cripple them so that they would not be a threat. That is the difference.

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Did you know in Missouri that blacks were the majority of slave owners at the time of the Civil War? Did you know that since the beginning of the country that there have been free black men and women. Did you know a black man was the architect of Washington D.C..

Now my ancestors have been here in this country quite awhile, and they are responsible for a great many reprehensible things, and many great things, and we as a large and prosperous family have ****ed everything that has walked or crawled or just was there, in every way imaginable literally and figuratively. I am sure some of the sorrier members of my family, way back when, owned slaves. Probably ****ed em and had children with them too, I imagine, after all there are more than a few black men and women in my family tree along with every other humanoid and not so humanoid critter too. Now that I said all that, I will get to my point. My family and the rest of America does NOT owe any former slave family one damned penny or anything else including an apology. Their family is free and have been so since at least since 1864. If the former slave family hasn't figured out how to succeed in America like every other that came before or since, it is not mine or Americas problem, its all on them and theirs, EVERY bit. Its not our problem them or theirs don't have the intestinal fortitude to earn their place at the table. I have no sympathy for them or theirs. Them and theirs have had plenty of time to learn how to make it in this country as countless others have done and countless numbers black men and women with balls(or tits as the case may be) and guts and the will to succeed have done since this country was founded. There are plenty of pathetic losers with no intestinal fortitude in this country of every race and creed. I have no pity for them. Very few of them have legitimate excuses. So as far I am concerned, **** em. My family may be a family of bastards, theirs is a family of fools. If there one thing every man ought to know, its that life is cast iron bitch and she will **** you every chance she gets. The movie Rocky Balboa has one of the best speeches ever about life, I will leave you with it.

The Rocky Balboa Speech “You ain’t gonna believe this, but you used to fit right here. (He gestures to the palm of his hand). I’d hold you up to say to your mother, ‘This kid’s gonna be the best kid in the world. This kid’s gonna be somebody better than anybody I ever knew.’ And you grew up good and wonderful. It was great just watchin’ you, every day was like a privilege. Then the time come for you to be your own man and take on the world, and you did. But somewhere along the line, you changed. You stopped being you. You let people stick a finger in your face and tell you you’re no good. And when things got hard, you started lookin’ for something to blame, like a big shadow. Let me tell you something you already know.The world ain’t all sunshine and rainbows. It’s a very mean and nasty place, and I don’t care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain’t about how hard you hit, it’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That’s how winning is done! Now if you know what you’re worth, then go out and get what you’re worth! But you gotta be willing to take the hits. And not pointing fingers saying you ain’t where you wanna be because of him, or her, or anybody! Cowards do that and that ain’t you! You’re better than that! I’m always gonna love you no matter what. No matter what happens. You’re my son and you’re my blood. You’re the best thing in my life. But until you start believing in yourself, you ain’t gonna have a life. Don’t forget to visit your mother.” - See more at: Rocky’s Inspirational Speech to His Son | GoodSirsRocky's Inspirational Speech to His Son - GoodSirs

mike2810 said:

yep. discrimination for all.

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And we SHOULD discriminate. We should ALL strive to be as bright, competent, capable, skilled, able, and qualified to achieve our goals as we can. And the brightest, most competent, most capable, most skilled, most able, and most qualified should be moved to the head of the line in all things--otherwise we diminish us all.

As I previously posted, I believe it was Walter Williams who said that the opportunity to try should be equal for everybody. And we, as Americans, have done a very good job in breaking down all institutional barriers that prevent anybody from trying. We have done a very good job in providing the opportunities. And the government can help with that. But nobody, not the government nor anybody else, can make somebody seize the opportunity that is available to them.

As Rocky Balboa meant in his speech: the person who believes he/she is inferior, no good, not capable, or chooses to succumb to victimization instead of rising above it, is doomed to be inferior, incapable, a victim their whole life. So a government who constantly tells a whole demographic of people that they are doomed to be inferior, incapable, victims unless big brother helps them out, has consigned those people to inferiority, inability, and victimization for generations. It is criminal. It should not stand. And if you are going to demand reparations from anybody, demand them from those who demand that we continue those indefensible policies.

mike2810 said:

yep. discrimination for all.

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I wonder if women on the whole welcome your view? Or any minority for that matter.

AlbqOwl said:

And we SHOULD discriminate.

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This suggests fair discrimination. What he mentioned suggested unfair discrimination. Unless you believe white males are just plain superior to everyone else. Is that the position.

I'm Irish American.. wheres my reparations for the way people treated my ancestors in the 1800's? ... Most even thought worse of us than the African Americans... see the problem with paying for something that happened to someone 100+ years ago?

Boo Radley said:

This suggests fair discrimination. What he mentioned suggested unfair discrimination. Unless you believe white males are just plain superior to everyone else. Is that the position.

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Sometimes a white male will be superior to everyone else in something. Sometimes a black one-legged dyslectic lesbian who is an ex-WAC will be superior to everyone else in something.

Standards that represent excellence in sports should not be lowered for the white guy who can't meet them even though the majority of those who meet the standards are black. Standards that represent excellence in police work or fire fighting or combat readiness should not be lowered because almost all the people who can meet them happen to be guys. Standards that represent excellence in academia should not be lowered because there is an over-representation of Asians who attain them.

Everybody should have opportunity to compete. But we diminish everybody if we lower standards to accommodate those who can't meet them no matter what their race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever. The only 'fair' society is one that demands excellence but attaches no more importance to skin color than it does eye color or hair color.

AlbqOwl said:

And we SHOULD discriminate. We should ALL strive to be as bright, competent, capable, skilled, able, and qualified to achieve our goals as we can. And the brightest, most competent, most capable, most skilled, most able, and most qualified should be moved to the head of the line in all things--otherwise we diminish us all.

As I previously posted, I believe it was Walter Williams who said that the opportunity to try should be equal for everybody. And we, as Americans, have done a very good job in breaking down all institutional barriers that prevent anybody from trying. We have done a very good job in providing the opportunities. And the government can help with that. But nobody, not the government nor anybody else, can make somebody seize the opportunity that is available to them.

As Rocky Balboa meant in his speech: the person who believes he/she is inferior, no good, not capable, or chooses to succumb to victimization instead of rising above it, is doomed to be inferior, incapable, a victim their whole life. So a government who constantly tells a whole demographic of people that they are doomed to be inferior, incapable, victims unless big brother helps them out, has consigned those people to inferiority, inability, and victimization for generations. It is criminal. It should not stand. And if you are going to demand reparations from anybody, demand them from those who demand that we continue those indefensible policies.

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if you didn't check it I was being sarcastic to B posts.