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Do you believe that America should pay reparations to African Americans?

Should we pay reparations to the African American community?

  • We should pay reparations to the African American communtiy

    Votes: 15 10.6%

  • We should not pay reparations to the African American community

    Votes: 126 89.4%
  • Total voters
    141
Status
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Moot said:
The Chinese were paid for their labor, the black slaves were not. The black slaves are still owed their back pay.
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Slaves do not get paid. That is the whole point of owning a slave. There is no back pay to be had.
 
Excon said:
Slaves do not get paid. That is the whole point of owning a slave. There is no back pay to be had.
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I think if people were not personally affected, a legal justification could be made for reparations. Slavery was not voluntary but forced labor under penalty of torture and death. Those enslaved were never compensated for their labor while the slave owners DID benefit financially. Wealth is passed down to descendants when people die but since the slaves were not allowed to accumulate wealth, there was nothing to pass down. Meanwhile the slave owners did pass down their wealth generated through the exploitation of slave labor to their descendants. The one legal barrier to claiming a portion of the former slave-owners' estates and inherited wealth, which was in large part generated by the former slaves' ancestors is the statute of limitations. What the folks seeking reparations for slavery are asking for is a special exception to the statute of limitations because of the heinous nature of the institution and to hold the government itself accountable due to its initial complicity in the cruel and barbaric exploitation of blacks for financial enrichment.
 
Moot said:
The Chinese were paid for their labor, the black slaves were not. The black slaves are still owed their back pay.
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So, we would identify the actual slaves, and divide an amount equal to what the Chinese made among their descendants, and only their descendants. Is that it?
 
radcen said:
So, we would identify the actual slaves, and divide an amount equal to what the Chinese made among their descendants, and only their descendants. Is that it?
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My great-grandmother was forced to give birth to 14 slave babies, turning her into a baby factory at the earliest age in order build the "wealth" of the slave owner. She finally ran away in her 20s and having my great-grand father in a normal voluntary marriage at the risk of torture and death. I think that crime was far more egregious than working on the railroad.

PS. I'm not demanding reparations. I'd just like to see America as a whole offer a little respect for those who suffered so much to build this country. One of the most offensive things I hear is "get over it" when the ENTIRE country should be honoring American black heritage during Black History Month.
 
Smeagol said:
I think if people were not personally affected, a legal justification could be made for reparations.
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Only in convoluted thoughts.
Slavery was legal.


Smeagol said:
Slavery was not voluntary but forced labor under penalty of torture and death.
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And? It was a legal practice.


Smeagol said:
Those enslaved were never compensated for their labor
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There is no employee employer relationship here.

Compensation for labor is not part of slavery.


Smeagol said:
while the slave owners DID benefit financially.
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And? That is why they invested in the legal practice of slavery. To make a profit.
Slaves are not entitle to any of the owners profit.


Smeagol said:
Wealth is passed down to descendants when people die but since the slaves were not allowed to accumulate wealth, there was nothing to pass down.
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Whaaaaaaa!
This is probably true for most of the non-slave population as well.


Smeagol said:
The one legal barrier to claiming a portion of the former slave-owners' estates and inherited wealth, which was in large part generated by the former slaves' ancestors is the statute of limitations.
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iLOL
Doh!
No it is not. There was no laws broken.


Smeagol said:
What the folks seeking reparations for slavery are asking for is a special exception to the statute of limitations because of the heinous nature of the institution and to hold the government itself accountable due to its initial complicity in the cruel and barbaric exploitation of blacks for financial enrichment.
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What they are seeking is an undeserved handout as it was a legal practice. Not something that was illegal but allowed.


Smeagol said:
I'd just like to see America as a whole offer a little respect for those who suffered so much to build this country.
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This is the result of flawed thinking in all regards.
The slaves did not build this country.
There is no doubt that their labor, much like that of the Chinese and Irish contributed to it's building, but none of them built this country.
No matter what was built, the credit for it goes to those who had the money to invest to cause that "building" in the first place.


Smeagol said:
One of the most offensive things I hear is "get over it" ...
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You should get over it as it does no good to continually harp on it. Not for yourself or the nation.


Smeagol said:
... when the ENTIRE country should be honoring American black heritage during Black History Month.
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Should be? Holy ****. No we should not.

We shouldn't even have something that divides us in that way.
 
N
Excon said:
Only in convoluted thoughts.
Slavery was legal.


And? It was a legal practice.


There is no employee employer relationship here.

Compensation for labor is not part of slavery.


And? That is why they invested in the legal practice of slavery. To make a profit.
Slaves are not entitle to any of the owners profit.


Whaaaaaaa!
This is probably true for most of the non-slave population as well.


iLOL
Doh!
No it is not. There was no laws broken.


What they are seeking is an undeserved handout as it was a legal practice. Not something that was illegal but allowed.


This is the result of flawed thinking in all regards.
The slaves did not build this country.
There is no doubt that their labor, much like that of the Chinese and Irish contributed to it's building, but none of them built this country.
No matter what was built, the credit for it goes to those who had the money to invest to cause that "building" in the first place.


You should get over it as it does no good to continually harp on it. Not for yourself or the nation.


Should be? Holy ****. No we should not.

We shouldn't even have something that divides us in that way.
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The fact that it was legal is the very reason people who demand reparations believe they are justified. Legal slavery was based upon unjust law.
 
Smeagol said:
The fact that it was legal is the very reason people who demand reparations believe they are justified. Legal slavery was based upon unjust law.
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Lame argument.

It wasn't an unjust law.

What was legal was legal. Had been since forever.


Which then gets us right back to the first mover and those who sold them into slavery in the first place.
 
radcen said:
So, we would identify the actual slaves, and divide an amount equal to what the Chinese made among their descendants, and only their descendants. Is that it?
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Sure, why not?
 
Excon said:
Lame argument.

It wasn't an unjust law.

What was legal was legal. Had been since forever.


Which then gets us right back to the first mover and those who sold them into slavery in the first place.
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Interesting perspective. Thanks for you candidness.
 
Smeagol said:
Interesting perspective. Thanks for you candidness.
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Can the bs.
I am speaking from the perspective of the time which their actions should be reviewed under. Not today's perspective.
 
Moot said:
The Chinese were paid for their labor, the black slaves were not. The black slaves are still owed their back pay.
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Slaves don't get pay so back pay is not owed to them...
 
Moot said:
The Chinese were paid for their labor, the black slaves were not. The black slaves are still owed their back pay.
Click to expand...

They're all dead.
 
Josie said:
They're all dead.
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The money could be put into a trust for the slaves ancestors....just like people do today for their ancestors.
 
Moot said:
The money could be put into a trust for the slaves ancestors....just like people do today for their ancestors.
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I'm guessing you don't mean their ancestors, but their descendants.

So let's take your point and run with it. You say that the slaves (their descendants) should receive the pay that the slaves should've earned for their work. Here are some questions for you....

1. Who pays - descendants of slave owners, right? How do you determine who they are?
2. How do you determine who gets the money?
3. How do you determine how MUCH money slaves would've earned?
4. Who will go through the archives and see how long a certain slave worked to see how much to pay their descendants?
5. What happens if a descendant of a slave owner refuses to pay?
6. Why should we pay for something awful dead people did and give the money to people who never experienced it?
 
Excon said:
Can the bs.
I am speaking from the perspective of the time which their actions should be reviewed under. Not today's perspective.
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You and I obviously have different perspectives but in my view if something would be heinous and barbaric in 2015, it was heinous and barbaric in 1915 and 1815. The only difference would be some people's hearts were hardened are their consciences seared. Right would still be right and evil still evil no matter what year, decade or century in my opinion.
 
America paid that debt with the lives of soldiers in the Civil War. It isnt perfect nor has this country been perfect. But progress is made by moving forward not by moving backwards. Pretending that paying living people for the hardships of their ancestors isnt going to make race relations worse is naive at best. Not too mention there can never be a satisfactory method of paying such things. I have ancestors in the South that fought on both side of the Civil War. One side is to blame for slavery, but the other are heros. No one ever mentions that in these conversations.
 
Moot said:
They earned it with their labor, so why wouldn't they be owed back pay?
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They were never employees... not sure why this is a difficult concept. Also, there was no mimumum wage back then but I guess we could adjust the dollar to that era and give ones that can prove slave ancestors 10 cents an hour, or whatever it adjusts to.
 
Moot said:
The money could be put into a trust for the slaves ancestors....just like people do today for their ancestors.
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Why would it be put into a trust and not just given to the people?
 
Josie said:
I'm guessing you don't mean their ancestors, but their descendants.
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Yes, that's what I meant...good guess.

So let's take your point and run with it. You say that the slaves (their descendants) should receive the pay that the slaves should've earned for their work. Here are some questions for you....

1. Who pays - descendants of slave owners, right? How do you determine who they are?
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Since most slaves took on their slave owners last name after the Civil war, their surnames, birth certificates, family records, old photos, etc.... could be used to determine who they are.

2. How do you determine who gets the money?
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Those who can prove they're direct 'decedents' should get the money.

3. How do you determine how MUCH money slaves would've earned?
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It could be determined by what whites were paid for doing similar labor and by records kept on cotton, sugar and indigo exports to determine the overall production value and output from slave labor.

4. Who will go through the archives and see how long a certain slave worked to see how much to pay their descendants?
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Academics at public colleges and universities most likely.

5. What happens if a descendant of a slave owner refuses to pay?
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Since the entire country benefitted from slave labor, it should come out of the general fund.

6. Why should we pay for something awful dead people did and give the money to people who never experienced it?
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Because the country still has the stain of slavery hanging over it's head...and we're supposed to be a moral country that pays our debts.
 
Bodhisattva said:
They were never employees... not sure why this is a difficult concept. Also, there was no mimumum wage back then but I guess we could adjust the dollar to that era and give ones that can prove slave ancestors 10 cents an hour, or whatever it adjusts to.
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It was involuntary servitude....not sure why this is a difficult concept, either.

"Involuntary servitude is a United States legal and constitutional term for a person laboring against that person's will to benefit another, under some form of coercion other than the worker's financial needs."​

Also, the reason indentured slaves stopped coming to the US is because wages rose in the UK and some of the colonies didn't want to pay white immigrants the going wage....so they turned to the slave trade to bring in slaves.. aka free labor. Of course, the slave's back wages would have to be adjusted for inflation.

Speaking of labor, today is Labor Day. lol
 
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Moot said:
Yes, that's what I meant...good guess.

Since most slaves took on their slave owners last name after the Civil war, their surnames, birth certificates, family records, old photos, etc.... could be used to determine who they are.

Those who can prove they're direct 'decedents' should get the money.

It could be determined by what whites were paid for doing similar labor and by records kept on cotton, sugar and indigo exports to determine the overall production value and output from slave labor.

Academics at public colleges and universities most likely.

Since the entire country benefitted from slave labor, it should come out of the general fund.

Because the country still has the stain of slavery hanging over it's head...and we're supposed to be a moral country that pays our debts.
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I think I recall hearing there are a handful of corporations that benefited financially from slavery that are still around today. And, as we know the southern states and the federal government were complicit in the slave industry.



The Incomplete List of US Companies & Universities That Benefited From Black Slavery
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/...iversities-that-benefited-from-black-slavery/
 
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Moot said:
It was involuntary servitude....not sure why this is a difficult concept, either.
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Slavery was legal... end of story. What I would like to know is who is supposed to pay? Why should one cent of a person's money that didn't even live in the USA or descendents of people that never owned slaves pay anything? That is just theft... straight up. So, even if you get people to agree that they should get paid, which I will never agree too, who pays?

Speaking of labor, today is Labor Day. lol
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Not here it isn't.
 
Smeagol said:
I think I recall hearing there are a handful of corporations that benefited financially from slavery that are still around today. And, as we know the southern states and the federal government were complicit in the slave industry.

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/...iversities-that-benefited-from-black-slavery/
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That's a good list. Along with corporations, the entire country benefitted from slavery whether they owned slaves or not IE: cotton picked by slaves in the south kept the mills and factories in the north operating and white immigrants employed.
 
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