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Do you believe in American Exceptionalism?

Do you believe in American Exceptionalism?

  • Total voters
    61
I didn't choose an option because the options are pointless.


All that matters is money and America currently has the best system for creating money so yes, in that respect, America is exceptional.


However China is starting to change the game by demonstrating that you don't have to have democracy or strong institutions in order to create wealth for many people. In that sense, perhaps what China really shows us all is that democracy means nothing, what really truly matters and has always mattered is, Can you create the most wealth? If China ends up proving it can with Market Authoritarianism, then the entire idea of democracy being superior is simply a farce and all that ever truly mattered was allowing a market.


In other words, here's a thought for the future.


If markets are all that truly matter, how long until the world is simply run by one giant military junta that figures out that all they have to do is allow a market to exist and control, protect it? Democracy and Communism might be the true small ideas in the end.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Hell no. What makes us so much "exceptional than other countries"?
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Oh, I don't know. I kind of like freedom of speech.


The idea that individuals have rights granted them by their creator rather than by a government which can remove them at a whim is also an old favorite, admittedly.
 
Ryan5 said:
I didn't choose an option because the options are pointless.


All that matters is money and America currently has the best system for creating money so yes, in that respect, America is exceptional.


However China is starting to change the game by demonstrating that you don't have to have democracy or strong institutions in order to create wealth for many people. In that sense, perhaps what China really shows us all is that democracy means nothing, what really truly matters and has always mattered is, Can you create the most wealth? If China ends up proving it can with Market Authoritarianism, then the entire idea of democracy being superior is simply a farce and all that ever truly mattered was allowing a market.


In other words, here's a thought for the future.


If markets are all that truly matter, how long until the world is simply run by one giant military junta that figures out that all they have to do is allow a market to exist and control, protect it? Democracy and Communism might be the true small ideas in the end.
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Its interesting how two people can look at the same thing and come to opposite conclusions. Communist nations are in decline, and have been for decades. China saw the writing on the wall and it owes its success in the last decade to adopting capitalist economic policies.

You appear to think it demonstrates that "democracy means nothing".
 
US Conservative said:
Its interesting how two people can look at the same thing and come to opposite conclusions. Communist nations are in decline, and have been for decades. China saw the writing on the wall and it owes its success in the last decade to adopting capitalist economic policies.

You appear to think it demonstrates that "democracy means nothing".
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China is not democratic. China is not Communist.


China is simply a giant country run by a military junta that allows a free market. And it will soon be the greatest wealth creator on the planet. So what does that say about democracy or the need for it? A lot, I'd say.



All the world truly needs is a global military faction to protect the global market. Such is why I believe various united, military factions of Nationalists will one day rule the entire planet and you will read about these little ideologies of democracy and communism in history books and people will go "How crazy that must have been!" (and I believe that will be an accurate reaction).
 
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There is nothing more socialist than believing in the notion that your country and by extension you are great thanks to things you had nothing to do with. It's like those people who run around saying "we built this country!". "We" didn't build anything. I'm sure the Empire State Building was already around by 1985. If anything, a small fraction of America is exceptional while the rest are just leeches.

There is nothing exceptional about the average overweight, undereducated, highly religious never-been-out-of-'Murica, American. There is nothing exceptional about the millions of slum dwellers this country has. There is nothing exceptional about the people who get by 'doing what they need to do'. Who are the exceptional Americans? The ones at the forefront of technology, the ones in our military, the ones defining worldwide tastes in art, the ones creating biotechnology.

Joe Black sitting on his front porch with his mullet and tattoos? He's about as exceptional as any other cockroach.
 
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US Conservative said:
The problem is finding "any large group of people" to do that. I'd argue that those who exhibit such traits could be considered Americans living abroad.
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Jesus Christ, dude....
 
cpwill said:
Oh, I don't know. I kind of like freedom of speech.
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Do you like being designated as an 'enemy of the state', imprisoned and tortured for the rest of your life without possibility of appeal?

The idea that individuals have rights granted them by their creator rather than by a government which can remove them at a whim is also an old favorite, admittedly.
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America is unique in this regard?
 
Load of crap.

America might once have been exceptional...not any longer.

Gitmo, drone strikes (acts of war without declaring war), the Federal Reserve basically running the economy, gigantic military industrial complex dictating foreign policy, assassinating Americans without trial on the whim of the POTUS, the NSA spying on Americans with only a generalized court order.

I think most of the Founding Fathers would be ashamed of what America has become.
 
I don't believe in Exceptionalism, period. Whichever country or institution has claimed it, it has been wrong, misguided and ultimately damaging and dangerous for itself and the community of nations/institutions in which it operates. American Exceptionalism is not exceptional; many nations and institutions have/do claim to be exceptional. The British, Roman, Chinese, Ottoman, Timurid, and Soviet empires have all claimed to be exceptional, as have the Catholic and Orthodox churches, Islam and the Jewish religions.

Here's the problem:
Exceptionalism is the perception that a country, society, institution, movement, or time period is "exceptional" (i.e., unusual or extraordinary) in some way and thus does not need to conform to normal rules or general principles.
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The bolded bit is the dangerous part. Many peoples may believe their own systems and achievements to be uniquely laudable. That might be understandable, if misguided, but when one believes that such self-proclaimed status exempts one from behaving unto others as you'd demand that others treat you, then trouble ensues.

I guess 'exceptionalism' could theoretically be accepted, if it were the case that it is accepted by the acclaim of all other nations or institutions, but I can't imagine a situation where such circumstances might pertain.

Growing up in Sixties and Seventies Britain, there was an assumption, rapidly being undermined by perfidious reality, that what England (and it has always been the hubris of the English that 'British' achievements were really English ones) stood for was everything best in the world.

The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.

In historical achievement, sporting prowess, ethically, morally and inventively it was assumed that if everyone could be, everyone would be born English. In the modern world that sounds as ridiculous, and as logically and rationally wacky as it always has been, and I don't feel remotely traitorous or nation-hating to say so.

The fact that currently the US is at the zenith (or maybe just a bit past it) of its military, economic and cultural influence (as Britain was from c.1815-1914) doesn't make the proposition 'The US, the US, the US is best, I wouldn't give two cents for all of the rest' any less hubristic or preposterous, and to buy into the whole shebang of American Exceptionalism is to do just that.

If you want to argue that America's exceptional past and present should exempt it from behaving as one expects every other nation to behave, then you undermine several of the very qualities that people believe might make it exceptional in the first place - that all men are created equal, for one thing. Are we to believe that Americans should be endowed with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but not that 'all men' are entitled to do so?
 
US Conservative said:
Statue%20of%20Liberty%20Crown%20with%20American%20Flag.jpg
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I am British, and I believe in American exceptionalism by one conception of the term, though I also believe in British exceptionalism, French exceptionalism, Russian exceptionalism, and a few others.

The US has done exceptionally well for itself -- at the start of the last century, it was a nobody; by the end, it was the undisputed superpower. This is indeed impressive. The US has the world's most powerful military, and by many measures the world's largest economy. Americans as a people are exceptionally friendly, outgoing and welcoming.

There are, however, plenty of ways in which the US is doing worse than other countries -- some immutable, some not. For example, the US simply lacks the institutional history to deal with questions of sovereignty crises as well as older nations like Britain or France. It's more susceptible to both extremist traditionalism and extremist revisionism, because of the lack of this institutional history.

The US also has huge crime problems, widespread poverty, a truly shocking healthcare system, poor education and an intractably corrupt local government system in some areas. These aren't unique problems, but that doesn't mean the US doesn't suffer from them -- and it's also true that some countries deal with them better.

Yet for all this I do tend to think of the US and Americans as somewhat headstrong and certainly impulsive but still good-natured children of ours. There's no doubt that of all our colonies, the US is the most powerful and influential.

I also fundamentally think that Americans' hearts are in the right place -- too many people think the US is just full of racist bigots and morons seeking to glass the entire Middle East and establish worldwide Christian American hegemony. I give you more credit than that. There are some of those sorts in your country, but then there's some of those sorts in every country. One shouldn't judge the country on that -- equally applied, I might add, to a place like Afghanistan, as troubled as it is.

Fundamentally I think the US is, in terms of national consciousness, trying to do right by the world, but a bit lost as to how to go about doing so. Like a child full of potential that rebels against his parents and doesn't listen to all of the lessons taught at school, I think the US at its roots is no longer rebellious (clearly not) and has taken a seat at the table of Western nations that have the power to shape the world, alongside countries like Britain, France, Germany, Canada, etc. The US may have missed out on a few lessons Canada got from its parent nation, but the US learned some valuable lessons of its own.

SO! Yes, I do believe in American exceptionalism, if by exceptionalism you mean "the belief that the US and the American people, while not perfect, have a distinct and good role to play in the world, and their struggle is our struggle, and vice versa."
 
Ad_Captandum said:
I am British, and I believe in American exceptionalism by one conception of the term, though I also believe in British exceptionalism, French exceptionalism, Russian exceptionalism, and a few others.

The US has done exceptionally well for itself -- at the start of the last century, it was a nobody; by the end, it was the undisputed superpower. This is indeed impressive. The US has the world's most powerful military, and by many measures the world's largest economy. Americans as a people are exceptionally friendly, outgoing and welcoming.

There are, however, plenty of ways in which the US is doing worse than other countries -- some immutable, some not. For example, the US simply lacks the institutional history to deal with questions of sovereignty crises as well as older nations like Britain or France. It's more susceptible to both extremist traditionalism and extremist revisionism, because of the lack of this institutional history.

The US also has huge crime problems, widespread poverty, a truly shocking healthcare system, poor education and an intractably corrupt local government system in some areas. These aren't unique problems, but that doesn't mean the US doesn't suffer from them -- and it's also true that some countries deal with them better.

Yet for all this I do tend to think of the US and Americans as somewhat headstrong and certainly impulsive but still good-natured children of ours. There's no doubt that of all our colonies, the US is the most powerful and influential.

I also fundamentally think that Americans' hearts are in the right place -- too many people think the US is just full of racist bigots and morons seeking to glass the entire Middle East and establish worldwide Christian American hegemony. I give you more credit than that. There are some of those sorts in your country, but then there's some of those sorts in every country. One shouldn't judge the country on that -- equally applied, I might add, to a place like Afghanistan, as troubled as it is.

Fundamentally I think the US is, in terms of national consciousness, trying to do right by the world, but a bit lost as to how to go about doing so. Like a child full of potential that rebels against his parents and doesn't listen to all of the lessons taught at school, I think the US at its roots is no longer rebellious (clearly not) and has taken a seat at the table of Western nations that have the power to shape the world, alongside countries like Britain, France, Germany, Canada, etc. The US may have missed out on a few lessons Canada got from its parent nation, but the US learned some valuable lessons of its own.

SO! Yes, I do believe in American exceptionalism, if by exceptionalism you mean "the belief that the US and the American people, while not perfect, have a distinct and good role to play in the world, and their struggle is our struggle, and vice versa."
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Outstanding post. Thank you for that.
 
US Conservative said:
Thats human nature but with nations we can at least compare objective criteria.
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That will not conclusively establish anything as the choice of criteria is a subjective activity.
 
We aren't exceptional. We could have been, and for a while maybe we were, but we've failed to live up to our promise.
 
cpwill said:
Oh, I don't know. I kind of like freedom of speech.
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Cool many countries respect that right. We are not the only country that respects that right.

The idea that individuals have rights granted them by their creator rather than by a government which can remove them at a whim is also an old favorite, admittedly.
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Also many countries also respect this.
 
DA60 said:
Load of crap.

America might once have been exceptional...not any longer.

Gitmo, drone strikes (acts of war without declaring war), the Federal Reserve basically running the economy, gigantic military industrial complex dictating foreign policy, assassinating Americans without trial on the whim of the POTUS, the NSA spying on Americans with only a generalized court order.

I think most of the Founding Fathers would be ashamed of what America has become.
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Actually, I think that if you actually checked, you'd find that in our first 50 years as a nation, we did a lot worse things than Gitmo (which I'm virulently opposed to, btw), we did indeed commit acts of war without declaring war (just ask the Native Americans of the time), our economy was a mess since there was much disagreement on how it should be structured (and Jefferson himself warned against the danger of corporations), the assassination of Americans without trial wouldn't have raised an eyebrow - we just simply would never have heard about it like we do now (there were brawls between congressmen even during sessions of Congress), and spying on American citizens has always been something our government has done (though never to the extent that the NSA has done).

As I keep saying, in the big picture, if we look at the whole of the American population, we are freer NOW, the conduct of our nation is better NOW than ever before. We're far from perfect - we've got a lot of problems. But let's not kid ourselves about what our nation was like in the past.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Cool many countries respect that right. We are not the only country that respects that right.


Also many countries also respect this.
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And it's amazing to see how many conservatives simply cannot grasp that yes, other nations do indeed value freedom of speech, of religion, of choice, every bit as much as we do...and sometimes even more so.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Everyone should believe their nation is the best.
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No they should not. They should strive to make it better. But to believe their "nation is the best" is simply idiotic, and leads to stopping progress.
 
Ad_Captandum said:
I am British, and I believe in American exceptionalism by one conception of the term, though I also believe in British exceptionalism, French exceptionalism, Russian exceptionalism, and a few others.

The US has done exceptionally well for itself -- at the start of the last century, it was a nobody; by the end, it was the undisputed superpower. This is indeed impressive. The US has the world's most powerful military, and by many measures the world's largest economy. Americans as a people are exceptionally friendly, outgoing and welcoming.

There are, however, plenty of ways in which the US is doing worse than other countries -- some immutable, some not. For example, the US simply lacks the institutional history to deal with questions of sovereignty crises as well as older nations like Britain or France. It's more susceptible to both extremist traditionalism and extremist revisionism, because of the lack of this institutional history.

The US also has huge crime problems, widespread poverty, a truly shocking healthcare system, poor education and an intractably corrupt local government system in some areas. These aren't unique problems, but that doesn't mean the US doesn't suffer from them -- and it's also true that some countries deal with them better.

Yet for all this I do tend to think of the US and Americans as somewhat headstrong and certainly impulsive but still good-natured children of ours. There's no doubt that of all our colonies, the US is the most powerful and influential.

I also fundamentally think that Americans' hearts are in the right place -- too many people think the US is just full of racist bigots and morons seeking to glass the entire Middle East and establish worldwide Christian American hegemony. I give you more credit than that. There are some of those sorts in your country, but then there's some of those sorts in every country. One shouldn't judge the country on that -- equally applied, I might add, to a place like Afghanistan, as troubled as it is.

Fundamentally I think the US is, in terms of national consciousness, trying to do right by the world, but a bit lost as to how to go about doing so. Like a child full of potential that rebels against his parents and doesn't listen to all of the lessons taught at school, I think the US at its roots is no longer rebellious (clearly not) and has taken a seat at the table of Western nations that have the power to shape the world, alongside countries like Britain, France, Germany, Canada, etc. The US may have missed out on a few lessons Canada got from its parent nation, but the US learned some valuable lessons of its own.

SO! Yes, I do believe in American exceptionalism, if by exceptionalism you mean "the belief that the US and the American people, while not perfect, have a distinct and good role to play in the world, and their struggle is our struggle, and vice versa."
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Well said, sir! Remember Kipling's "White Man's Burden"? If one takes it in the context of the time (by which I mean one should ignore the racist language), one can see that Kipling was being a 'sunset poet' for England, that it was his way of "passing the torch" from England to America when it came to world leadership. For the past few years, I've come to think that maybe it's time that we here in America find a 'sunset poet' of our own (and I've hubris enough to submit my own entry for the title). We were on top for almost a century, but because we had the best of everything, we sat on our laurels and have allowed other nations to pass us up when it comes to standards of living and education, all the while never dreaming that we could ever be surpassed. What's more, we don't realize that when it comes to world leadership, we have not even come close to the centuries of influence that England (and Rome before her) held - we are too blinded by our own national hubris.

Who will next assume the mantle of world leadership? China might - they're very smart and they've got more political will than we do - but I suspect that they've got a great deal of internal problems that they've got to address first. My money is on the EEC instead.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
No they should not. They should strive to make it better. But to believe their "nation is the best" is simply idiotic, and leads to stopping progress.
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When it was universally accepted that we were the best. We did great things.
 
radcen said:
Why do so many people confuse "exceptional" with "best" and a sense of exclusivity?
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I don't think they do. We're not discussing 'exceptional', but 'exceptionalism'. I thought I answered this point in my first post.

Exceptionalism is the perception that a country, society, institution, movement, or time period is "exceptional" (i.e., unusual or extraordinary) in some way and thus does not need to conform to normal rules or general principles.
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The bolded bit is the problem.

If 'exceptionalism' were simply about being exceptionally good at something, then almost every nation on Earth could make a valid claim. The -ism bit is what makes the difference.
 
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