View Poll Results: Do you agree, we are told to "shut up" when we disagree with the government?

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    6 31.58%
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    12 63.16%
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Thread: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

  1. #11
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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Now personally, my THEORY is this attempt to compare and label ones politics opponents in extremely negative ways as a method for attempting to "silence" their dissent to avoid said label is not a new thing. I wouldn't be shocked if this was happening under Clinton and Reagan and others. The issue of course is that 1) I was a bit too young to truly follow those guys closely and 2) the lack of social media and news coverage made such things less likely to permeate the mainstream conciousness of the public. However, in this 21st century it's been a tactic both sides have routinely and continually used.
    I was younger when Clinton was in office, that is when I first began to follow politics. The Republicans were labeled as out of touch radicals under Clinton (even as Clinton appropriated several key Republican stances for himself). And the Republicans themselves seem to have a real "get Clinton" zeal that I always got the impression was not the case with previous administrations of Bush and Reagan. Of course, those guys pre-date me really following politics, so I'm going by the impressions I picked up from commentators of the Clinton era.

    I think part of the reason Republicans loathed Clinton was how scandals or issues that would've sunk candidates in earlier times just seemed to bounce off Clinton like he was made of Teflon. Affairs, draft dodging, drug use none of it stuck to him, where as in previous campaigns people were torpedoed for just one such infraction.

    Anyway, I'm curious if any of our older posters can tell us if there was as much vitrol under Reagan/Bush/Carter.
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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    I was younger when Clinton was in office, that is when I first began to follow politics. The Republicans were labeled as out of touch radicals under Clinton (even as Clinton appropriated several key Republican stances for himself). And the Republicans themselves seem to have a real "get Clinton" zeal that I always got the impression was not the case with previous administrations of Bush and Reagan. Of course, those guys pre-date me really following politics, so I'm going by the impressions I picked up from commentators of the Clinton era.

    I think part of the reason Republicans loathed Clinton was how scandals or issues that would've sunk candidates in earlier times just seemed to bounce off Clinton like he was made of Teflon. Affairs, draft dodging, drug use none of it stuck to him, where as in previous campaigns people were torpedoed for just one such infraction.

    Anyway, I'm curious if any of our older posters can tell us if there was as much vitrol under Reagan/Bush/Carter.
    That's kinda a hard comparison to make. Reagon/Bush/Carter were really before all the instant,in your face communication we have now.
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  3. #13
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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    First, I think that referencing Nazi Germany in our current age is a failed effort, regardless of whether or not you're a 2004 Democrat or a 2012 Republican. It just doesn't work in our current society because even if it's an honest, sincere, and forthright comparison of a very specific instance (which, frankly, is rare imho) it still comes across as something else. References to Nazi Germany in any fashion almost always come off, and are likely intended, to be nothing but a guilt by association tactic of leveraging the emotional implications that go along with Nazi Germany within the American psyche.

    You could be comparing and contrasting the transportation laws of Nazi Germany to that of the United States and it would still come off that you're attempting to discredit the United States laws by tying them to Germany's, because if they have ROADS like the Nazi's just think what else like the nazi's they could have! Oh, and you know what else the nazi's did? Gas Chambers! You don't support gas chambers do you!!!!!

    The reality is that for the VAST majority of analogies where one uses Nazi Germany there is probably another country, regime, group, etc that you could use as the comparison instead that doesn't have the attached emotional baggage.

    Now, as to his point about being told to "Shut up". In those speecific words, not so much....but I absolutely do think there's been a strong movement by both sides in this century to try and shout down and criticize those who speak up or take legal action against what the government or it's bodies are trying to do.

    Obviously Ben Carson isn't the only presidential candidate that has felt this style of feeling sometime within the 21st century. Let me quote another Presidential Candidate speaking of it:

    "'I'm sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you're not patriotic."

    That was Hillary Clinton. If you'll recall the national conversation, especially from democrats at the time, the general notion was that accusations of lack of patriotism were meant to "silence" critics ... aka "shutting them up". In many ways, the Left's complaint that "any disagreement with Bush is called unpatriotic" mirrors the Right's complaint that "any disagreement with Obama is called racist".

    Though indeed, the questioning of ones patriotism, or really their stance as an "american", as a means of "silencing" them is hardly just a right wing thing. Before you had Sarah Palin going on about "real americans" you had Barack Obama suggesting supporting a debt ceiling increase was "unamerican".

    Many on the left also suggested the accusations of "supporting terrorists" or the like were clearly attempts to silence people from disagreeing with the Bush Administrations "war on terror" policies, and this continued for some time. Remember the indignation over John Aschcroft suggesting disagreement with the BA anti-terrorism policies were supporting terrorists and the claims that it was trying to silence their critics. And again, what is "silencing" but a nice say of saying trying to "shut up" their critics? You have that kind of thing continuing on today as well. You had members of this current administration comparing those who wanted spending cuts to go with a debt cieling raise as "terrorists" and people with "bombs strapped to their chests". You had individuals who disagreed with Democratic legislative attempts and sought to stop them being compared to arsonists and anarchists.

    Now personally, my THEORY is this attempt to compare and label ones politics opponents in extremely negative ways as a method for attempting to "silence" their dissent to avoid said label is not a new thing. I wouldn't be shocked if this was happening under Clinton and Reagan and others. The issue of course is that 1) I was a bit too young to truly follow those guys closely and 2) the lack of social media and news coverage made such things less likely to permeate the mainstream conciousness of the public. However, in this 21st century it's been a tactic both sides have routinely and continually used.

    But there's a grand difference between fighting back against speech through the use of speech and fighting back against speech through the use of government power. The latter is closer in relation to what occured in Nazi Germany and what, if it clearly begins to occur in this country, is definitely worthy of great worry. The former, which is what this largely is today, is a sad notion of the state of politics in this country but is hardly the precusor to an authoritarian state.
    I would tend to agree with your assessment of the situation, and even double down on your bet that this has been going for a long time to say that it has been going on since before our Republic. Further we are actually quite polite today. Our forefathers loved slinging mud and could and would say and write anything including some very nasty things about their opponents. Anybody every heard of "Hoecake eating sloths"? Believe me our current political system is tame. Some people would have large bovine offspring if political rhetoric, got to the level of our founding.

    I do disagree with one point of your assessment though. At least a bit. That is the government IS trying to and is stifling political speech. Is the attempt the level of Nazi Germany in its heyday? No. But we are seeing more instances of such conduct and that is disturbing. The IRS thing be one of those. The McCain Feingold amendment being another. The instances of late, of city counsels arresting people for speaking out at councils meetings. There is creep in the direction of shutting down speech. It is the creep that is troubling to me.

    People need to realize that politics is a contact sport, like football or Nascar or basketball. Bumping, grinding, and getting knocked down are part and parcel part of the deal. If people cant handle that maybe, they need to stay away. Like Yogi said "If cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen."
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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by BMCM View Post
    That's kinda a hard comparison to make. Reagon/Bush/Carter were really before all the instant,in your face communication we have now.
    There was just as much vitriol when Reagan was president. He was the first president to be called a Teflon president. The democrats didn't like him, as is par for the course. But a sizable chunk of the republican party didn't like him either. He won because he got some democrats to vote for him.
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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    There was just as much vitriol when Reagan was president. He was the first president to be called a Teflon president. The democrats didn't like him, as is par for the course. But a sizable chunk of the republican party didn't like him either. He won because he got some democrats to vote for him.
    Every president has had people that just didn't agree with them and even hated them. Then you heard about it from the Newspapers, TV's and radios, with all the instant 24/7 communication, internet forums like this one every little thing is an instant headline.
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  6. #16
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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I do disagree with one point of your assessment though. At least a bit. That is the government IS trying to and is stifling political speech. Is the attempt the level of Nazi Germany in its heyday? No. But we are seeing more instances of such conduct and that is disturbing. The IRS thing be one of those. The McCain Feingold amendment being another. The instances of late, of city counsels arresting people for speaking out at councils meetings. There is creep in the direction of shutting down speech. It is the creep that is troubling to me.
    People made similar claims under the George Bush Administration with "Free speech zones" around events and the ability to gag certain individuals from disclosing information under the Patriot Act.

    Even with that, and now, I think specifically reaching to Nazi Germany as the analogy is EXTREMELY off base and clearly transparent in it's intent the VAST majority of the time. There are plenty of examples of government stepping in, to some degree, on peoples speech and actions as it relates to politics without leaping to Nazi Germany. And undoubtably there are better examples out there than Nazi Germany as it relates to the far more benign methods of it that have occured in this country.

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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    People made similar claims under the George Bush Administration with "Free speech zones" around events and the ability to gag certain individuals from disclosing information under the Patriot Act.

    Even with that, and now, I think specifically reaching to Nazi Germany as the analogy is EXTREMELY off base and clearly transparent in it's intent the VAST majority of the time. There are plenty of examples of government stepping in, to some degree, on peoples speech and actions as it relates to politics without leaping to Nazi Germany. And undoubtably there are better examples out there than Nazi Germany as it relates to the far more benign methods of it that have occured in this country.
    I would agree the Nazi analogy is overused and not analogous to the current situation as it stands now.
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    Re: Dr. Carson In The Crossfire

    When our president and his party tell us that dead American's are "false scandals", and that there is "not a smidgen of corruption" he is effectively telling Americans to shut up-as in we wont be heard.

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