View Poll Results: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

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  • USA would never enter the war ,nazi germany would win a victory over Europe and USSR

    7 22.58%
  • USA would enter the war but get defeated by Nazis ,nazi influence would spread all over the world.

    1 3.23%
  • USA would enter the war and take over Nazi germany and a different socialist block would be shaped

    4 12.90%
  • USA would enter the war ,no socialist block would be able to formed to lead the world politics

    1 3.23%
  • l have other theories

    17 54.84%
  • not my business

    2 6.45%
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Thread: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

  1. #51
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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    It's all over with, but I believe that Russia would probably have defeated Germany without the USA's help.
    Perhaps, one can't know for sure about these things. Russia had U.S. help and Germany had to worry about the western front as much as the eastern front and then there was Africa. Without Pearl, there would have been no landings in Northern Africa, at least when they happened. I do not think Germany would have had to keep as many troops on the Atlantic Wall if it was just worried about England without the U.S.. The bottom line is it is hard to tell. Even with Pearl being bombed, if Japan had went north and invaded Russia instead of going south, that would have prevented Stalin from moving masses of troops from east to west to take on the Germans.

    Perhaps Stalin and the USSR could have eventually beat Hitler, but no one will really know. Pearl was bombed and what we have is a bunch of what if's.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Yeah, but it's already happened and you'll never put that toothpaste back in the tube.
    In one way at least, it's good - no one wants to be the first to do it again, after seeing what happened the first time.
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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Too many 'if's' to answer, imo.

    Does this assume that Japan never attacks America? How would they continue their war with China if America cut off it's oil deliveries to Japan? Under this scenario, then I assume Japan ends the China war and makes peace with CHina - whilst occupying large portions of the country.

    What I find interesting is what would happen in Europe? America might not enter the European war - they only declared war on Germany after Pearl harbor AFTER Germany declared war on America. That would leave Germany/Italy against the Soviet Union and Great Britain.
    I still think the Axis would have been defeated. But it probably would have taken a lot longer and been a lot bloodier (if that was possible).


    Now that I think about it - it's an interesting scenario.

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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Too many 'if's' to answer, imo.

    Does this assume that Japan never attacks America? How would they continue their war with China if America cut off it's oil deliveries to Japan? Under this scenario, then I assume Japan ends the China war and makes peace with CHina - whilst occupying large portions of the country.

    What I find interesting is what would happen in Europe? America might not enter the European war - they only declared war on Germany after Pearl harbor AFTER Germany declared war on America. That would leave Germany/Italy against the Soviet Union and Great Britain.
    I still think the Axis would have been defeated. But it probably would have taken a lot longer and been a lot bloodier (if that was possible).


    Now that I think about it - it's an interesting scenario.
    I have encountered a fiction book series that starts with Japan invading and conquering Hawaii, rather than just attacking it.
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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    FDR is considered one of the three great presidents this country has had by historians. I agree with them. I will give you my best guess coming from what I have read about him, I think FDR was an Anglophile and was determined to do all he could to keep England from falling to the Nazis. Besides he and Churchill had a real good friendship. I do not think it had anything to do with getting us out of the Great Depression or even manufacturing. Lend Lease pretty much determined we were not going to get paid. I think FDR realized Hitler could very well conquer Europe and pretty much of Asia if we didn't get ourselves involved. He did have great foresight.
    I wouldn't call FDR an Anglophile. I think early on he wanted to prop up England against the Nazis, not out of love for England but because he recognized what the Nazis were. Once we officially entered the war, FDR was pretty determined to use the war to break the English empire and create a new post imperialist world lead by the US. I think Churchill and FDR had a warm relationship, but Churchill let that relationship blind him to FDR's agenda. FDR never let the personal mix with the political.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    Perhaps, one can't know for sure about these things. Russia had U.S. help and Germany had to worry about the western front as much as the eastern front and then there was Africa. Without Pearl, there would have been no landings in Northern Africa, at least when they happened. I do not think Germany would have had to keep as many troops on the Atlantic Wall if it was just worried about England without the U.S.. The bottom line is it is hard to tell. Even with Pearl being bombed, if Japan had went north and invaded Russia instead of going south, that would have prevented Stalin from moving masses of troops from east to west to take on the Germans.

    Perhaps Stalin and the USSR could have eventually beat Hitler, but no one will really know. Pearl was bombed and what we have is a bunch of what if's.
    Without US involvement, its possible Churchill's government might have eventually fallen and peace was made in the west. Hitler was willing to grant fairly generous terms to the British, as he admired the British Empire. That would've aided Germany's push east, but I don't think it would've been nearly enough. The logistics in Russia don't favor an invading force and Hitler's no retreat policy almost guaranteed that when fortunes did turn, it would be disastrous for the Germans, ala Stalingrad.

    Japan going into Russia, just wouldn't work. They're army was still tied down in China, no way they could summon the manpower for a major invasion of Russia without fatally undermining their ability to hold their gains in China.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Without US involvement, its possible Churchill's government might have eventually fallen and peace was made in the west. Hitler was willing to grant fairly generous terms to the British, as he admired the British Empire. That would've aided Germany's push east, but I don't think it would've been nearly enough. The logistics in Russia don't favor an invading force and Hitler's no retreat policy almost guaranteed that when fortunes did turn, it would be disastrous for the Germans, ala Stalingrad.

    Japan going into Russia, just wouldn't work. They're army was still tied down in China, no way they could summon the manpower for a major invasion of Russia without fatally undermining their ability to hold their gains in China.
    Perhaps if Japan focused on controlling China, they would have been better off in the end...
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    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    That was their intention, but the oil embargo was severely hampering their ability to wage war in Japan, so they hoped to strike the US hard and quick and force a peace that would get the oil flowing again. Japan incorrectly believe the US had no stomach for war and would back down if Japan scored enough early victories.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    vote ,thank you
    Well Medusa, that question was asked over seventy years ago and was answered by those who know what would have happened.


    What if the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbor?

    >" The operational use of Japanese Naval Aviation was designed around the IJN's strategic and operational plan to respond to a US Navy thrust to the Philippines and
    force a decisive battle on Japanese terms.

    The IJN recognized the US Navy as its primary foe from the end of the Russo-Japanese War. From 1906, the IJN began to craft a strategic and operational plan
    for countering a US Navy thrust into the Western Pacific. Japan's naval building program was designed around the operational and tactical needs for executing the
    Plan. From what we know now, the IJN was reasonably informed about US Navy strategic concepts for a war in the Pacific. Whether they knew the details or
    not, or anything about the constant swings of power between the "thrusters", desiring an immediate all-out thrust to the Philippines at the start of a war and the
    "cautionaries", who sought a deliberate, step by step offensive to Japan is probably moot. The US navy would come west and the IJN had to be prepared to stop
    them.

    Japanese scenarios start with an attack on US possessions and forces in the western Pacific, with or without a declaration of war. They then expected the US
    Navy to mount an expedition, sooner or later, to relieve or recover the Philippines. With the acquisition of the Mandates, the IJN planned to enmesh the US Navy
    within the Mandates in a campaign of attrition by Japanese light forces. When the American force had been sufficiently weakened, the Battle Force would sail from
    the Sea of Japan and execute the "coup de grace".

    By the 1930's, the IJN envisioned its light forces as consisting of land based aviation, carrier based aviation, heavy and light cruisers, destroyers and submarines,
    along with some special systems "cooked up" especially for this campaign. Submarines and seaplanes would make the initial contact. They would shadow the US
    force and guide other submarines and the land based aviation to the target. The submarines would begin to probe the US perimeter to distract US forces from the
    oncoming bombers and torpedo planes. The submarines would also scatter mines and miniature subs in the US force's path. At night, Japanese cruisers and
    destroyers would conduct long-range torpedo attacks with "Long Lances". The Japanese built special torpedo cruisers with 40 tubes installed quick reload gear for
    torpedoes on their cruisers and destroyers and practiced hard at these tactics.

    Once the US forces had been ground down, many ships damaged, the crews exhausted, the Japanese carriers would strike. Up to 1941, the IJN planned to use
    their CVs in single carrier task forces. Thanks to Genda, the IJN developed a new doctrine and concentrated their carriers into a single strike force. They would
    have struck at dawn, 4-6 CVs, dive-bombers, torpedo bombers and fighters. The fighters would have swept the skies over the Americans, and the strike forces
    would have concentrated initially on the US CVs. Once the US naval aviation was broken and air superiority secured, denying use of the skies by the US
    observation planes and securing its use by the Japanese, the battleships would come forward, and using aerial spotting engage in a long range gunnery duel. Once
    the culminating point was reached, the Battle Force would close in on and destroy the Americans.

    Meanwhile, the subs would be eliminating any wounded vessels, which left formation and tried to reach US ports. With the US forces broken, the remaining IJN
    light forces, including the carriers and battle cruisers would pursue and complete the enemy's destruction.

    How much the US Navy knew about this plan is not entirely known. But US attaches had divined most of the outline of this plan. Whether this had any impact on
    the change over from a "immediate offensive" to a more cautious approach is also unproven. But the intent of the "thrusters" to charge forward to the Philippines
    would have played into the IJN's hands. The more cautious approach of "nibbling" through the Japanese defenses was more realistic in its appraisal of both the US
    and Imperial Japanese Navies.

    Anyone who reads "War Plan Orange" can see the development of both navies' strategic plans. More importantly, these plans both reveal the very important place
    of aviation in the concepts. Both land and carrier based aviation was neither neglected nor ignored. As early as the 1920's, the USN incorporated air power in its
    "island-hopping" campaign, sought to use seaplane bombers to reinforce the Fleet, developed a plan to convert fast liners and cargo vessels into auxiliary carriers
    and developed an "end game" to Plan Orange that seized islands off Japan for bases to conduct a strategic bombing campaign.

    But the IJN did attack Pearl Harbor. And I would contend that this operational decision was in line with current IJN doctrine..."<

    Continue -> What if the Japanese had not attacke Pearl Harbor?

  10. #60
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    Re: What would happen if Pearl harbor wasn't bombed ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    That was their intention, but the oil embargo was severely hampering their ability to wage war in China, so they hoped to strike the US hard and quick and force a peace that would get the oil flowing again. Japan incorrectly believe the US had no stomach for war and would back down if Japan scored enough early victories.
    Fixed that for you, good post btw
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