View Poll Results: When was America most free as a nation?

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  • Between the end of the Revolutionary War and the start of the Civil War?

    18 27.69%
  • Between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of World War One?

    3 4.62%
  • Between the end of WWI and the passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    4 6.15%
  • Today, including the time after passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    40 61.54%
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Thread: When was America most free as a nation?

  1. #71
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You really didn't get my point, did you? Even with the regulation of water by the federal and state governments, there's only so much water to go around.

    If you and everyone else are allowed to use all the water you want, even if much of it is wasted, then when the water runs low because of everyone wasting so much water, everyone - including you - suffers.

    So you believe that you and everyone else should be able to waste all the water you want just because you can, even if it leads to water rationing in the future? Or do you believe that a modicum of regulation would be more prudent if it would prevent that water rationing from ever happening?

    Please answer the question.
    I got your point fine. You would hand over your right to use your property to some authority who would allow you to have whatever they thought you should have and you would have no say in that whatsoever. You have no problem with that in the interest of the 'common good'.

    But I ask again, who is wise enough to decide who should have such power? And where is the power to deal with those given power who choose to use it in purely self serving ways for their own benefit?

    I prefer to choose who will have the authority to ration water if that should become necessary and to keep that as local as possible to ensure that the people retain control of the process; i.e. that freedom be the rule. The Federal Government should have no such power.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  2. #72
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    The dating is more clear, but not the substance of the answer. You claimed that, "everyone in America had the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." But that was not the case for many groups of people who had no such expectations with the way they were being treated by their government (be it local, county, state, district court, or federal, etc.)
    I'll say it again... the unequal treatment of blacks and minorities from that era was not a result of laws passed by the federal government. The discrimination and unfair treatment was on a state and regional basis, and was rooted on more of a societal level than anything. There were states where black people were largely left alone, not harrassed and allowed to pursue their happiness just as anyone else.

    My point still stands... A point that not one person has yet acknowledged, that our freedoms have been deteriorating at the hands of the federal government for a century now, as well as the level at which our rights are being trampled upon.

  3. #73
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Possibly the late sixties to early 70s. However, the ruling class quickly turned things around. The famous Powell memo was likely the turning point.

    ................
    But what now concerns us is quite new in the history of America. We are not dealing with sporadic or isolated attacks from a relatively few extremists or even from the minority socialist cadre. Rather, the assault on the enterprise system is broadly based and consistently pursued. It is gaining momentum and converts.
    ..............
    Here are some of Powell's recommendations. You can see that these things were effectively implemented in the US, which has resulted in the significant shift of the US to the right of the political spectrum that we see today.

    The first thing Powell wanted to attack was the head, the intelligentsia. A very smart move.

    The ultimate responsibility for intellectual integrity on the campus must remain on the administrations and faculties of our colleges and universities. But organizations such as the Chamber can assist and activate constructive change in many ways, including the following:

    Staff of Scholars
    The Chamber should consider establishing a staff of highly qualified scholars in the social sciences who do believe in the system. It should include several of national reputation whose authorship would be widely respected -- even when disagreed with.

    Staff of Speakers
    There also should be a staff of speakers of the highest competency. These might include the scholars, and certainly those who speak for the Chamber would have to articulate the product of the scholars.

    Speaker's Bureau
    In addition to full-time staff personnel, the Chamber should have a Speaker's Bureau which should include the ablest and most effective advocates from the top echelons of American business.

    Evaluation of Textbooks
    The staff of scholars (or preferably a panel of independent scholars) should evaluate social science textbooks, especially in economics, political science and sociology. This should be a continuing program.

    The objective of such evaluation should be oriented toward restoring the balance essential to genuine academic freedom. This would include assurance of fair and factual treatment of our system of government and our enterprise system, its accomplishments, its basic relationship to individual rights and freedoms, and comparisons with the systems of socialism, fascism and communism. Most of the existing textbooks have some sort of comparisons, but many are superficial, biased and unfair.

    We have seen the civil rights movement insist on re-writing many of the textbooks in our universities and schools. The labor unions likewise insist that textbooks be fair to the viewpoints of organized labor. Other interested citizens groups have not hesitated to review, analyze and criticize textbooks and teaching materials. In a democratic society, this can be a constructive process and should be regarded as an aid to genuine academic freedom and not as an intrusion upon it.

    If the authors, publishers and users of textbooks know that they will be subjected -- honestly, fairly and thoroughly -- to review and critique by eminent scholars who believe in the American system, a return to a more rational balance can be expected.

    Equal Time on the Campus
    The Chamber should insist upon equal time on the college speaking circuit. The FBI publishes each year a list of speeches made on college campuses by avowed Communists. The number in 1970 exceeded 100. There were, of course, many hundreds of appearances by leftists and ultra liberals who urge the types of viewpoints indicated earlier in this memorandum. There was no corresponding representation of American business, or indeed by individuals or organizations who appeared in support of the American system of government and business.

    Every campus has its formal and informal groups which invite speakers. Each law school does the same thing. Many universities and colleges officially sponsor lecture and speaking programs. We all know the inadequacy of the representation of business in the programs.

    It will be said that few invitations would be extended to Chamber speakers. This undoubtedly would be true unless the Chamber aggressively insisted upon the right to be heard -- in effect, insisted upon "equal time." University administrators and the great majority of student groups and committees would not welcome being put in the position publicly of refusing a forum to diverse views, indeed, this is the classic excuse for allowing Communists to speak.

    The two essential ingredients are (i) to have attractive, articulate and well-informed speakers; and (ii) to exert whatever degree of pressure -- publicly and privately -- may be necessary to assure opportunities to speak. The objective always must be to inform and enlighten, and not merely to propagandize.

    Balancing of Faculties
    Perhaps the most fundamental problem is the imbalance of many faculties. Correcting this is indeed a long-range and difficult project. Yet, it should be undertaken as a part of an overall program. This would mean the urging of the need for faculty balance upon university administrators and boards of trustees.

    The methods to be employed require careful thought, and the obvious pitfalls must be avoided. Improper pressure would be counterproductive. But the basic concepts of balance, fairness and truth are difficult to resist, if properly presented to boards of trustees, by writing and speaking, and by appeals to alumni associations and groups.

    This is a long road and not one for the fainthearted. But if pursued with integrity and conviction it could lead to a strengthening of both academic freedom on the campus and of the values which have made America the most productive of all societies.

    Graduate Schools of Business
    The Chamber should enjoy a particular rapport with the increasingly influential graduate schools of business. Much that has been suggested above applies to such schools.

    Should not the Chamber also request specific courses in such schools dealing with the entire scope of the problem addressed by this memorandum? This is now essential training for the executives of the future.

    Secondary Education
    While the first priority should be at the college level, the trends mentioned above are increasingly evidenced in the high schools. Action programs, tailored to the high schools and similar to those mentioned, should be considered. The implementation thereof could become a major program for local chambers of commerce, although the control and direction -- especially the quality control -- should be retained by the National Chamber.
    ....................

  4. #74
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    I got your point fine. You would hand over your right to use your property to some authority who would allow you to have whatever they thought you should have and you would have no say in that whatsoever. You have no problem with that in the interest of the 'common good'.

    But I ask again, who is wise enough to decide who should have such power? And where is the power to deal with those given power who choose to use it in purely self serving ways for their own benefit?

    I prefer to choose who will have the authority to ration water if that should become necessary and to keep that as local as possible to ensure that the people retain control of the process; i.e. that freedom be the rule. The Federal Government should have no such power.
    You really don't want to answer the question, do you? You know better than to do so, huh? I asked you first, and you're trying to distract with the question. Please directly answer the question, and then I will answer yours.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  5. #75
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I'll say it again... the unequal treatment of blacks and minorities from that era was not a result of laws passed by the federal government. The discrimination and unfair treatment was on a state and regional basis, and was rooted on more of a societal level than anything. There were states where black people were largely left alone, not harrassed and allowed to pursue their happiness just as anyone else.
    But what happens when the federal government does little to nothing to either speak out against the laws of the states, nor upholds the expectations of an American citizen to be granted Constitutional protections, or in fact takes the action to decree that those laws are in fact Constitutional (thus giving permission to the states to adopt similar laws, because it is now sanctioned) At the least, the federal government tolerated the abuses of the system against American citizens, and at worst, was an instigator in subjecting American citizens to a life which did not believe they had the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    In most ways we are more free than ever. Yes, we are less free to do business without restrictions, but that also protects our rights as neighbors and consumers and workers to avoid being harmed by faulty products, to know the ingredients of the food and medicine we buy, to work in safe conditions, to access (relatively) clean air and water and to seek recourse when a business cheats or harms us.

    Legally, and theoretically, we have more freedom of expression than ever before due to the de facto reduction of government censorship, although the laws and case law granting the government the ability to censor erotic materials remain on the books. The monpolization of the media and its distribution channels has made the ability to have your expression actually reach an audience without being rejected or censored by a media owner more difficult. The internet has somewhat counteracted that trend. Some government practices such as "free speech zones" at major events and related forms of suppression of public protests (often illegal in my opinion) also curtail our right to be heard, although it is hard to accurately compare the relative freedom of today's situation with past practices which also curtailed the right to protest. In the past you might get arrested or beaten for protesting, now you are forced to do your protest in a place where no one will see you. Which is worse?

    Our right to privacy has been steadily shrinking. That is due to technology, bad court decisions and business practices.

    The application of science and technology, especially medical and sanitary advances, by both government and business has given us many new freedoms. We no longer have to be concerned about polio, leprosy, heat stroke (as long as you aren't a farm worker and can afford an air conditioner), bear attacks, contaminated foor and water and many other threats.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 05-24-14 at 07:07 PM.

  7. #77
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by HogWash View Post
    Dude, dude, dude...cool it. I, of all people you run off at the mouth at, do NOT need a geography or history lesson from YOU. Nor do I need to know about the Negroes' plight AFTER being SOLD by their own tribal chieftains to the Amsterdam, Holland slave traders in the 1600s. Nor do I need to know all about your ancestors who are all buried in Mississippi. Nor do I give a flying turd.

    I'm talking TODAY. NOW. And this **** is happening every day in this country.

    WHITE GIRL BLEED A LOT

    Did you READ IT? Of course you didn't. You don't want to know.
    Ah. You're deep inside the right-wing echo chamber, dug in like a tick. You read that book and think to yourself that oh, no, the blacks are terrorizing everybody, everybody run!!!!

    But are you objective enough to look at that book with a critical eye, with the cynicism that should be applied to any work making wild claims? Are you really? Here's the other side of the story:

    I’ve never been entirely clear on the definition of the right-wing epithet “race hustler” (it usually seems to mean “a black person who talks about racism”), but I’d figure a person writing a silly book designed solely to scare white people would qualify.

    So here’s the thing: If you look for every example of crimes committed by black people in every American city over the last three to five years, you’ll find enough examples to make it sound like a lot of crime, because America is a violent country with a lot of crime, a lot of poverty and a lot of impoverished minority neighborhoods located conveniently close to much wealthier white neighborhoods (and business districts where everything is also owned by white people).

    But this epidemic of racial crime isn’t an epidemic. It’s barely a blip. According to the FBI, there were 575 crimes motivated by anti-white bias in 2010, nationwide. There were 545 anti-white crimes in 2009 and 716 in 2008. There were more than 2,000 crimes motivated by anti-black bias in each one of those years. Of course, the book insinuates that all black-on-white crime is racially motivated, but even by that standard things are looking pretty rosy in America right now.

    The violent crime rate has been plummeting since its peak in the early 1990s, which now looks like the crest of one of America’s periodic (and slightly mysterious) waves of violent crime. (In the long term, the homicide rate has been steadily falling for hundreds of years. We are genuinely much more civilized now than we used to be.) Back when this country actually had race riots, and not just large gangs of kids briefly fighting and scaring white people on summer nights, there were … actual race riots, motivated by racial tensions. It’s absurd to imagine a secret pandemic of black-on-white violence motivated by anti-white racism that the media and all of our law enforcement agencies conspire to keep secret for reasons of political correctness. There would have to be hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of crimes that no one is reporting in order for the current violent crime rate to come close to matching what it was a generation ago. There can’t be an epidemic of black crime that coincides with the least amount of total crime in America since the 1960s.

    The point, of course, isn’t to make an argument supported by statistics. It’s to marshal all available anecdotal data to support the paranoid white conservatives’ gut feeling that this country is on the brink of Charlie Manson’s Helter Skelter.

    (Sometimes the need to prove the wanton criminality of blacks leads right-wing outlets to have to pretend to care about other frequently marginalized groups. But it’s a bit difficult for World Net Daily, whose editors put distracting and hilarious scare quotes around every example of the word “gay” in Flaherty’s column on black-on-gay violence.)


    Okay, guy? You got taken for a ride - you read about ohmygosh HUNDREDS of black-on-white crimes and doyaseehowthoseblacksareterrorizingourkids??? But you did not take the time to really THINK about what you were reading, to really see if the totals were statistically significant...and they're certainly not.

    You're just another probably white, probably older conservative who read something that he wanted to believe, and because it fit your worldview you just KNEW it had to be the gospel truth...because it sounded right to you.

    And that, sir, is why I am no longer the racist conservative that I was raised to be - somewhere along the line I learned to question what I'd been taught, I learned to question the assumptions, and I could not ignore what I saw in my travels around this world that forced me to unlearn so much of what I'd been taught in my youth. But that doesn't mean that I don't understand you - I understand you very, very well...because I used to be one of you. I haven't forgotten the dog-whistles, the assumptions, the irrational fear, and the prejudice that colored every decision that involved dealing with 'those' people. I know you better than you think...but unless you've been a hard-left liberal before, you really cannot understand how or why I believe as I do.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  8. #78
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Ah. You're deep inside the right-wing echo chamber, dug in like a tick. You read that book and think to yourself that oh, no, the blacks are terrorizing everybody, everybody run!!!!

    But are you objective enough to look at that book with a critical eye, with the cynicism that should be applied to any work making wild claims?
    Those videos and the lack of reporting by the national drive-by media speak for itself. No, I don't need bleeding hearts, such as yourself, brainwashed by our public school system, telling me anything about the perfect behavior of our black citizenry in this country. Or how bad they are treated by whites. Videos say it all. Along with the LOCAL news reports. I moved my family out of St. Louis city, 37 years ago, in July. FOR A REASON. The city of St. Louis peaked just short of 900,000 in the early 1950s. Today it has about about 310,000 residents...about 250,000 of which are black. There is a REASON for that. But, without doubt, you wouldn't understand it...dude.

    Tell it to someone who gives a crap.
    Liberalism—dividing up the EARNED wealth of honest, hard working and ingenious AMERICANS and giving it to the leeches who would rather waste their worthless lives living off the government teat.
    -----HogWash-----

  9. #79
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    But what happens when the federal government does little to nothing to either speak out against the laws of the states, nor upholds the expectations of an American citizen to be granted Constitutional protections, or in fact takes the action to decree that those laws are in fact Constitutional (thus giving permission to the states to adopt similar laws, because it is now sanctioned) At the least, the federal government tolerated the abuses of the system against American citizens, and at worst, was an instigator in subjecting American citizens to a life which did not believe they had the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
    Look, there is no time period that is perfect. There are good aspects and bad aspects today, just as there was in times from our past. I was asked a question, given options, and I answered it the best way I could, based on my beliefs and perceptions.

  10. #80
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    After The Pill and before personal computers.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



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