View Poll Results: When was America most free as a nation?

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  • Between the end of the Revolutionary War and the start of the Civil War?

    18 27.69%
  • Between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of World War One?

    3 4.62%
  • Between the end of WWI and the passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    4 6.15%
  • Today, including the time after passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    40 61.54%
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Thread: When was America most free as a nation?

  1. #171
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Man View Post
    I wonder what portion of total federal expenditures go to roads, police, firefighters, and defending our shores.
    You're obviously alluding to the cost of our social safety net. What you don't get is that you pay anyway. You can either pay the taxes that enable us to maintain our social safety net, or you can pay the taxes for the increased police, courts, and prison costs for what happens when we take the social safety net away.

    Look, guy, higher taxes are the price of admission for life in a first-world democracy. If you want to live somewhere that your taxes will be much lower, go live in a third-world nation. But it's those higher taxes that enable first-world democracies to provide the standard of living that is found in first-world democracies.

    So...what kind of freedom do you want? The freedom found in first-world democracies? Or the freedom found in third-world nations?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  2. #172
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Apparently 25% of the poll responders consider the right to own slaves more important than right to not be a slave.

  3. #173
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    mpg's Avatar
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You're obviously alluding to the cost of our social safety net. What you don't get is that you pay anyway. You can either pay the taxes that enable us to maintain our social safety net, or you can pay the taxes for the increased police, courts, and prison costs for what happens when we take the social safety net away.

    Look, guy, higher taxes are the price of admission for life in a first-world democracy. If you want to live somewhere that your taxes will be much lower, go live in a third-world nation. But it's those higher taxes that enable first-world democracies to provide the standard of living that is found in first-world democracies.

    So...what kind of freedom do you want? The freedom found in first-world democracies? Or the freedom found in third-world nations?
    You have to weigh the pros against the cons. If you wanna do that correctly, don't put a con in the pro column.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  4. #174
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    You're obviously alluding to the cost of our social safety net.
    No, I'm just observing the standard rejoinder of, "So I guess you don't like roads, or police, or firefighters, or the military" when that isn't really the issue in the first place.

  5. #175
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Making a basic living unfettered by gov't regulation is not small matter as a personal freedom.
    hmmmm. That's a toughy. I don't know how I feel about that.

  6. #176
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Are they? I'm not seeing it when the federal government can control what kind of lightbulb or toilet I am allowed to manufacture or buy, what the gas mileage on my automobile must be, refuse me the right to use my own property as I choose, confiscate any portion of my personal property they choose to take, dictate the kind of healthcare I am required to buy, and can launch a federal investigation of my activities just because I am accused of being politically incorrect.

    And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
    That's true. In the early 1800's the government wasn't big enough to pull off any of that. They could have made the laws but they would have been unable to enforce it.

  7. #177
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And when the government steps in and lessens the rate of poverty?

    Which is better - an "unfettered" life where more are living in poverty, or a life where the government takes action to do that which lessens the rate of poverty among the people?
    The freedom to starve isn't a pleasant thing but the topic is freedom not the well-being of citizens.

  8. #178
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And when the government steps in and lessens the rate of poverty?

    Which is better - an "unfettered" life where more are living in poverty, or a life where the government takes action to do that which lessens the rate of poverty among the people?
    The poll asks specifically about freedom. It doesn't ask when the US was better.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  9. #179
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And as I've pointed out so often before, you pay anyway. You'll either pay to help the poor and indigent through your taxes...or you'll pay for what happens when they have zero support in the form of higher taxes for more police, more court cases, more prisons, and in the form of higher prices because the more homeless there are near a business, the fewer people will go to that business, the higher the insurance rates for businesses will be, and the higher the crime rates will be.

    Like I said, you pay anyway. You'll either pay to help them and maybe even give them the opportunity to rise above their station...or you'll pay for what happens when they become homeless.

    Personally I think the first option makes a lot more sense.
    Safety and freedom are polar opposites. A free society has no safety. A safe society has no freedom. The trick is finding the right balance. We are more balanced today than we were in the 1800's. People running rampant and committing crimes represents a high level of freedom. Freedom is the topic of discussion.

    Whether freedom is a good thing or a bad thing would be a different discussion altogether. That's a discussion I would enjoy being involved. Freedom isn't as great as we make it out to be.

  10. #180
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    The poll asks specifically about freedom. It doesn't ask when the US was better.
    Yeah. I picked up on that too. They aren't the same thing.

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