View Poll Results: When was America most free as a nation?

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  • Between the end of the Revolutionary War and the start of the Civil War?

    18 27.69%
  • Between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of World War One?

    3 4.62%
  • Between the end of WWI and the passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    4 6.15%
  • Today, including the time after passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    40 61.54%
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Thread: When was America most free as a nation?

  1. #161
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Problem is, he - and you, apparently - are making an assumption that if a government is bigger, it must automatically start bugging its own citizens, and this is a completely false assumption. America did with the NSA...but this does not automatically mean that all big governments do. Look at the other 'big government' nations, like Germany, France, Australia, NZ, Japan, Italy...do these nations do so? We have no real proof that they do so, do we? No.

    On the other hand, do nations with smaller governments monitor their citizens? Yes, they can and some do so...particularly those that are not democracies or do not have a long tradition of democracy. For instance, look at the several nations in Africa where the people are monitored for homosexual behavior, or actions that are against Sharia law?

    In other words, the size of the government is NOT an indication of more or less freedom. That's just a false assumption on TD's - and your - part.
    I can't speak for TD, but I surely never said anything like that. He and I both said that taxes are a loss of freedom, and that isn't debatable.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  2. #162
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Problem is, he - and you, apparently - are making an assumption that if a government is bigger, it must automatically start bugging its own citizens, and this is a completely false assumption. America did with the NSA...but this does not automatically mean that all big governments do. Look at the other 'big government' nations, like Germany, France, Australia, NZ, Japan, Italy...do these nations do so? We have no real proof that they do so, do we? No.

    On the other hand, do nations with smaller governments monitor their citizens? Yes, they can and some do so...particularly those that are not democracies or do not have a long tradition of democracy. For instance, look at the several nations in Africa where the people are monitored for homosexual behavior, or actions that are against Sharia law?

    In other words, the size of the government is NOT an indication of more or less freedom. That's just a false assumption on TD's - and your - part.
    I'm not saying that taxes cause a loss of freedom; I'm saying that taxes are a loss of freedom.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  3. #163
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    The far right and all their memes about taxation is sickening and this latest bit of nonsense that taxes mean a loss of freedom and liberty is no less offensive. You don't want to live in a civilized society where taxes are the admission price? Cool. Ray Charles said it best - hit the road jack and don't come back no more.

    Otherwise - shut up and know your role. I think the Rock said that.
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  4. #164
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The far right and all their memes about taxation is sickening and this latest bit of nonsense that taxes mean a loss of freedom and liberty is no less offensive. You don't want to live in a civilized society where taxes are the admission price? Cool. Ray Charles said it best - hit the road jack and don't come back no more.

    Otherwise - shut up and know your role. I think the Rock said that.
    Whenever the government comes up with a new idea, you have to weigh the pros against the cons. If it involves a tax increase, that goes in the con column if freedom is one of your core values. This is not debatable.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  5. #165
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I can't speak for TD, but I surely never said anything like that. He and I both said that taxes are a loss of freedom, and that isn't debatable.
    Are they really a loss of freedom? Because how can you have the freedom you enjoy without paying those taxes? Would you be more free if you didn't have roads, police, firefighters, a strong military?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  6. #166
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Are they really a loss of freedom? Because how can you have the freedom you enjoy without paying those taxes? Would you be more free if you didn't have roads, police, firefighters, a strong military?
    Even if you have a net increase in freedom, it might be because the increases outweighed the decreases. See post #162.
    Last edited by mpg; 06-01-14 at 06:41 PM.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  7. #167
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    I find it interesting that so many feel America was most free when more than half the population did not have the right to vote..
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  8. #168
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Whenever the government comes up with a new idea, you have to weigh the pros against the cons. If it involves a tax increase, that goes in the con column if freedom is one of your core values. This is not debatable.
    freedom is something we all value. So you do not have a corner on that market and it is not some silly trump card that can be played.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  9. #169
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    I find it interesting that so many feel America was most free when more than half the population did not have the right to vote..
    Apparently the RIGHT and FREEDOM to be a bigot and oppress others is high on some folks list of priorities.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #170
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Yeah, get rid of ALL taxes! It's all just theft from individuals from the eeeeeeeevil government! Who needs roads and police and firefighters and a strong military anyway?
    I wonder what portion of total federal expenditures go to roads, police, firefighters, and defending our shores.

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