View Poll Results: When was America most free as a nation?

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  • Between the end of the Revolutionary War and the start of the Civil War?

    18 27.69%
  • Between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of World War One?

    3 4.62%
  • Between the end of WWI and the passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    4 6.15%
  • Today, including the time after passage of the Civil Rights Act?

    40 61.54%
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Thread: When was America most free as a nation?

  1. #121
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Except that NOW, LGBT's no longer have to hide in the closet or get fired or beaten or worse. NOW - and since the Civil Rights Act - blacks and other nonwhites are no longer subject to Jim Crow. NOW, women are more likely to be paid equal wages for equal work...but the Right is still putting the kibosh on anything legal to back that up. NOW, one doesn't get thrown in jail just for saying that we shouldn't be at war with whatever nation we're attacking. And if you think that the police are more violent now than at any time before the 1970's, you've got a LOT of history-learnin' to do.

    Don't get me wrong - our privacy is very much at stake, Gitmo (thanks to the Republicans in the House who won't let them go) is a perversion of American values, and there's the whole laundry list of other problems to which you alluded (not the least of which is our prison population). But right now, a greater percentage of Americans are freer than ever before.
    I don't think you can trade freedom and act like something has been gained. Yes, it is now a much better place for "protected groups" (too lazy to list them) and that is a great thing that I support 100%. Economic freedom is absolutely poor and political freedom is worse. So yeah, two guys can get married but you can't make a decent living, buy a house, start a family, and vote for someone who is not paid for by a corporation that needs the government it buys to survive. From my point of view, that's not much of an improvement.

    And yes, there are several other threats to freedom that exist today. Of course, I felt that the examples I listed were enough to draw a strong case. It can all be summed up with a single sentence: Our government does not respect the sovereignty of person(s) or other nations. That alone is anti-freedom

    Although, I will make it absolutely clear that I think all human's rights movements that have had success are great things.
    "The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." : Stephen King

    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." Thomas Jefferson

  2. #122
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Man View Post
    The United States are not a nation. They are a federation of sovereign states.
    Nonsense. We are a nation. Americans, within the 50 states share a common identity and governmental structure.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #123
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    1691.
    prior to 1490 was about as free as it got
    "The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." : Stephen King

    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." Thomas Jefferson

  4. #124
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastIndependent View Post
    I don't think you can trade freedom and act like something has been gained. Yes, it is now a much better place for "protected groups" (too lazy to list them) and that is a great thing that I support 100%. Economic freedom is absolutely poor and political freedom is worse. So yeah, two guys can get married but you can't make a decent living, buy a house, start a family, and vote for someone who is not paid for by a corporation that needs the government it buys to survive. From my point of view, that's not much of an improvement.

    And yes, there are several other threats to freedom that exist today. Of course, I felt that the examples I listed were enough to draw a strong case. It can all be summed up with a single sentence: Our government does not respect the sovereignty of person(s) or other nations. That alone is anti-freedom

    Although, I will make it absolutely clear that I think all human's rights movements that have had success are great things.
    Y'know, if you think we're not free, I'd recommend that you get out and travel the world a bit, get to know the locals and listen to their stories (and I have done this)...and then maybe you'd find out just how free you really are.

    Again, we're not perfect - we're far from it. I especially hate how the conservatives on the Supreme Court have sent us (and perhaps irrevocably) down the road to oligarchy. But anyone who thinks that America's not free...simply has no idea what life is like where there's far less freedom, where people can only dream of the individual rights we have.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #125
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Y'know, if you think we're not free, I'd recommend that you get out and travel the world a bit, get to know the locals and listen to their stories (and I have done this)...and then maybe you'd find out just how free you really are.

    Again, we're not perfect - we're far from it. I especially hate how the conservatives on the Supreme Court have sent us (and perhaps irrevocably) down the road to oligarchy. But anyone who thinks that America's not free...simply has no idea what life is like where there's far less freedom, where people can only dream of the individual rights we have.
    I am not saying that we are less free than any other nation. That would be silly. I have enough world knowledge to know the world is full of plight. We are also not the most free nation by individual measures and we are certainly not the best unless you equate military spending with grandeur... But is being a house slave instead of a field slave all that grand?
    "The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." : Stephen King

    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." Thomas Jefferson

  6. #126
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastIndependent View Post
    prior to 1490 was about as free as it got
    Yes...and no. Perhaps you should learn a bit about primitive cultures to see if they were as free as you think. I'm sure you've heard the stories about how the cultures were in Central and South America...and despite the "noble savage" line we've been fed for decades, now, I'm not so quick to think that North American natives weren't that much different from their neighbors to the south.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #127
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Yes...and no. Perhaps you should learn a bit about primitive cultures to see if they were as free as you think. I'm sure you've heard the stories about how the cultures were in Central and South America...and despite the "noble savage" line we've been fed for decades, now, I'm not so quick to think that North American natives weren't that much different from their neighbors to the south.
    You're very right. The southern nations had a very rigid system that is similar, to my understanding, to the Ancient Egyptians. Of course, many of the northern nations were much better than the southern ones as far as we know. The tribes were more of a small-scale communalism and even a confederacy up in the Northern US.
    "The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." : Stephen King

    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." Thomas Jefferson

  8. #128
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastIndependent View Post
    I am not saying that we are less free than any other nation. That would be silly. I have enough world knowledge to know the world is full of plight.
    Yes...and no. There are lots of places that have it a lot better than we do.

    We are also not the most free nation by individual measures
    Except for the fact that some countries have more gay rights than we do, how are we less free than other first-world nations? And while there's a lot of third-world nations where businesses are a lot freer than America, you've got to look at the other side of the coin - that freedom comes with a price, and part of that price is worker exploitation beyond anything we've seen in America since before WWII. This is not to say there are nations that are freer in many ways...but you just have to be careful to look at the big picture, because there's a heck of a lot more to freedom than most people think.

    and we are certainly not the best unless you equate military spending with grandeur... But is being a house slave instead of a field slave all that grand?
    Ah. The slavery equivalent of Godwin's Rule.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  9. #129
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    I find it interesting how many people conflate "freest" with "best".
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  10. #130
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    Re: When was America most free as a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Was it before the Civil War, or before WWI, or before the Civil Rights Act, or today?

    And why do you think so?
    I think that really around the 50's - 60's the type of government we had started to change, and by the 80's it was full force marching towards the corporate capitalist, single party structure of modern America.

    We should be most free now as the Republic was built to increase freedom over time. But we've peaked and headed downhill since fascism has taken firm root in our government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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