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Are Cops Too Militarized?

Are police units going too far by being overly militarized?


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Good post soup!

I saw a TV documentary about the policing of the 1930s. Apparently the bank robber gangs had gotten a hold of some BAR 50s and Thompson sub-machine guns. The Police were no match using 38 stub-nosed specials. They had to upgrade their fire power just to be able to keep up with the gangs.

I suppose that what we see today is that law enforcement never wants to play catch up again.

The difference is that while Bonnie and Clyde were wanted dead of alive, the SWAT teams of today are being used in far lighter crimes. It's like they want to instill fear in the average law abiding citizen. This culminates in deaths in raids that used to just cause arrests.

No Thompson's, Clyde's weapon of choice was the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) chambered for the 30-06 and the .45 ACP M-1911-A1 pistol.
All were stolen form National Guard armories.

Law enforcement officers back then were responsible for supplying their own firearms. During the 20's and 30's money was tight and the .38 Special revolver was the weapon most could afford. Usually with a six inch barrel not a snub nose revolver.

As for today, it's interesting who these police chiefs are who are arming their departments with just not military full auto weapons but also with armored assault vehicles, most are liberal "progressive police chiefs."

When I drive through the city of Monrovia, Ca. today which has a population of around 36,000 it's hard not to shake your head and breakout in a laugh when you see their black armored assault vehicle driving down a residential neighborhood with a machine gun turret on top.
 
colt 45 ACP 1911 is still seen by many who understand the topic as being the premier military or self defense handgun PERIOD

and those two browning automatic rifles (20 rounds of 30-06) are more powerful than either the M16 or the AK 47

a bit heavier but in terms of firepower, very few weapons you can easily carry can match it

Yes I agree the 1911 ACP is the best hand gun ever made. I have several of them from Colt , Kimber and Springfield.

John Browning who designed it was a genius, he also designed the M2 .50 cal machine gun still in use by the military.

The thompson submachine gun has been around a LONG time as was the BAR two of which are in the photo ( along with stacks of loaded magazines ). The main difference between those " assault " weapons and today's popular weapons is caliber and complexity. From what old timers told me about the BAR and thompson they had many working parts which required more skill to dis - assemble, clean and re - assemble. Modern weapons are easier to maintain. Which is probably irrelevant to street gangs who likely spend little time cleaning their weapons anyways.

Many criminals from earlier eras also favored shot guns. I've always been a litle puzzled why street gangs today and other viscious criminals prefer semi - autos. I suppose it has something to do movies and other media. Mel Gibson uses a Beretta in Lethal Weapon and everybody wants one. A sawed off shot gun is just about as easy to conceal but far more deadly if you're shooting in a crowd of two or more at close range. I suppose we should be a little relieved that violent criminals care more about what's cool looking as opposed to what is truly effective at killing.

Back in the day of Dillinger and Bonnie/Clyde people understood there are a few murderous criminals who need to be dealt with. Yet somehow people were not as concerned with disarming the average citizen or permanently militarizing the police.
 
colt 45 ACP 1911 is still seen by many who understand the topic as being the premier military or self defense handgun PERIOD

I'd steer clear of taking advice from any of them.

If that's what they think, they don't understand the topic well enough.
 
I'd steer clear of taking advice from any of them.

If that's what they think, they don't understand the topic well enough.

well I think there are pistols as good as the 1911 but nothing clearly superior. for self defense against one or two attackers it is hard to match short of a shotgun or carbine.
 
well I think there are pistols as good as the 1911 but nothing clearly superior.

I'm curious why you say that.

I think I disagree but I have to make some assumptions in order to do so and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt in explaining your position before I run off on some diatribe that may be irrelevant.

While I generally disagree with you on gun control policy I recognize that you're very knowledgeable when it comes to firearms, certainly more knowledgeable than I am in most respects, and I respect your opinion even if I don't always agree with you. I'd like to keep our "technical" discussions and our "policy" discussions separate.
 
I'm curious why you say that.

I think I disagree but I have to make some assumptions in order to do so and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt in explaining your position before I run off on some diatribe that may be irrelevant.

While I generally disagree with you on gun control policy I recognize that you're very knowledgeable when it comes to firearms, certainly more knowledgeable than I am in most respects, and I respect your opinion even if I don't always agree with you. I'd like to keep our "technical" discussions and our "policy" discussions separate.


Massad Ayoob called the 1911 "the black belt's weapon" for gun fighting meaning for experts it is ideal. I have close to a half million rounds through a pistol-many of them in high stress timed events. Now I shoot a SW M&P CORE in Stock steel and a CZ "Czechmate" Race gun in open class but I spent years shooting USPSA and "Bowling Pin" Events with various incarnations of the 1911 including a Colt Series 70 Wilson LE-K Comp and a Fred Craig built Para/Caspian 15 round 1911. Very few pistols have the natural pointing characteristics of the 1911 and the sliding-as opposed to pivoting-trigger is hard to match for pure speed shooting. Combined with the fact that the 1911 paired with 45 ACP is a

1) very accurate round
2) a low pressure round meaning much greater service life than stuff like the 40 SW
3) and has proven stopping power even in military FMJ rounds

you have a great combination of self defense

additionally, unlike modern Double action.single action pistols-the trigger pull is constant on a 1911-unlike say a Beretta or Sig Sauer. sand while the Glocks and other striker fired weapons have a constant trigger pull, they aren' as smooth

magazine changes on the 1911 are slightly slower due to the single stack magazine compared to the double stacked 9mm or 40 SW firearms though.

the only argument against the 1911 as a service weapon is

a) 45 ACP ammo is heavier than 9mm
b) 1911s generally have lower capacity than 9mms

for weak shooters, the recoil is more severe than a 9mm. however, the recoil on a 1911 in 45 ACP is less damaging to your joints than the recoil in the 40 SW.
 
Seems every government agency and city now has a SWAT team. And SWAT activity has gone up by 1500% in the last two decades.

John W. Whitehead: SWAT Team Mania: The War Against the American Citizen
The United States of SWAT? | National Review Online

Police departments are now being given surplus military vehicles too to wage war war against its own citizens.

TN Police Departments Get Tank-Like Military Vehicles - NewsChannel5.com | Nashville News, Weather & Sports
Leftover armored trucks from Iraq coming to local police agencies - NY Daily News

SWAT teams now routinely use no-knock entry tactics and sometimes end up shooting innocent people when they enter the wrong house or due to faulty intel.

Jose Guerena shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Five Unnecessary SWAT Team Raids Gone Terribly Wrong
WND reports on SWAT raids on the innocent

Let us remember one thing, cops are not military personnel, they are classified as civilians, like everybody else who isnt military. Why should they be issued military weapons and dress like an army of occupation? Should something be done about this?

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Way too militarized, way too trained to shoot first and ask questions later.
 
When in our history did the American right wing begin the hard turn against law enforcement? At one time American conservatives and support for law enforcement went hand in hand. Now, its obvious that the hate for government that is part and parcel of libertarianism has been extended to law enforcement. When did this devolution happen?

When the police force grew out of hand and started working against the People. Government goons are not to be trusted.
 
Yes Maggie - back in the Sixties - some forty to fifty years ago, the left was the anti-law enforcement wing. So what made it switch over the last forty to fifty years?

Liberals/lefties have been concerned about the militarization of the police, pre-conviction property seizures, police accountability, the right to protest peacefully, racial profiling, sentencing disparities impacting minorities and poor people, criminalization of young people and are against the war of drugs for decades. In my view this is a more mature and nuanced view compared to the of the old anti-cop attitudes. It also reflects some of the successes in making the police more accountable and community oriented.

The right has become more anti-authoritarian since Obama was elected because they feel that conservatives are no longer in control of the establishment the way they used to be. Most of them will probably return to being authoritarian if and when Republicans/conservatives/white men get more of their power back.
 
You have cops wearing military uniforms equipped with military weapons and treating fellow citizens like an occupational army and you wonder why some segments of society dont like it? Am I reading this right?

Poor people, minorities and counter culture people have felt like the police are an occupational army for a very long time, now that they are worried about gun control and minorities in power, white conservatives are experiencing what it feels like.
 
What militarization of the police? The things discussed int he OP are for the most part keeping up with technology. are you against the police keeping up with technology?

I suspect part of the reliance on more powerful equipment is the slavish campaign to reduce municipal budgets thereby costing police jobs and positions and the difference then has to be made up in equipment rather than bodies. And it was a right wing desire to slash taxes and government that was the impetus for this.

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"A decade of billions in spending in the name of homeland security has armed local police departments with military-style equipment and a new commando mentality. But has it gone too far? Andrew Becker and G.W. Schulz of the Center for Investigative Reporting report.

Nestled amid plains so flat the locals joke you can watch your dog run away for miles, Fargo treasures its placid lifestyle, seldom pierced by the mayhem and violence common in other urban communities. North Dakota’s largest city has averaged fewer than two homicides a year since 2005, and there’s not been a single international terrorism prosecution in the last decade.

But that hasn’t stopped authorities in Fargo and its surrounding county from going on an $8 million buying spree to arm police officers with the sort of gear once reserved only for soldiers fighting foreign wars.

Every city squad car is equipped today with a military-style assault rifle, and officers can don Kevlar helmets able to withstand incoming fire from battlefield-grade ammunition. And for that epic confrontation—if it ever occurs—officers can now summon a new $256,643 armored truck, complete with a rotating turret. For now, though, the menacing truck is used mostly for training and appearances at the annual city picnic, where it’s been parked near the children’s bounce house....

The buying spree has transformed local police departments into small, army-like forces, and put intimidating equipment into the hands of civilian officers. And that is raising questions about whether the strategy has gone too far, creating a culture and capability that jeopardizes public safety and civil rights while creating an expensive false sense of security...

In Montgomery County, Texas, the sheriff’s department owns a $300,000 pilotless surveillance drone, like those used to hunt down al Qaeda terrorists in the remote tribal regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan. In Augusta, Maine, with fewer than 20,000 people and where an officer hasn’t died from gunfire in the line of duty in more than 125 years, police bought eight $1,500 tactical vests. Police in Des Moines, Iowa, bought two $180,000 bomb-disarming robots, while an Arizona sheriff is now the proud owner of a surplus Army tank.

The flood of money opened to local police after 9/11, but slowed slightly in recent years. Still, the Department of Homeland Security awarded more than $2 billion in grants to local police in 2011, and President Obama’s 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act contributed an additional half-billion dollars."
 
Arguably the beginning of the trend

fa_153_batteringram970.jpg


"Feb. 18, 1986: A Los Angeles Police Department battering ram sits next to a South Los Angeles home damaged during a police raid. The house was suspected of being a center for drug dealing. A Uzi submachine gun and eight other firearms were found inside. A second nearby home also was raided. Seven suspects were detained.

It was the fifth time the six-ton armored vehicle equipped with a 14-foot steel battering ram had been used in LAPD raids."
LAPD battering ram - Framework - Photos and Video - Visual Storytelling from the Los Angeles Times
 
What? Is this a serious question?

Let's not forget that the "war on drugs" is not just an American thing. Other countries have adopted this policy at our urging as well. See links below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/11/opinion/11iht-edcardoso11.html?_r=0

War on Drugs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Im sorry.... I don't think you seem to understand..

I didn't ask what the War on Drugs is.

I asked what the "fallout" you mentioned is.

The point I am getting at is that your original post I responded to seems to imply that if the war on drugs went away, suddenly the inner city trash neighborhoods would suddenly become like the more peaceful suburbia.
 
Im sorry.... I don't think you seem to understand..

I didn't ask what the War on Drugs is.

I asked what the "fallout" you mentioned is.

The point I am getting at is that your original post I responded to seems to imply that if the war on drugs went away, suddenly the inner city trash neighborhoods would suddenly become like the more peaceful suburbia.

Obviously you didn't read the links. It's all stated therein.
 
When in our history did the American right wing begin the hard turn against law enforcement? At one time American conservatives and support for law enforcement went hand in hand. Now, its obvious that the hate for government that is part and parcel of libertarianism has been extended to law enforcement. When did this devolution happen?

Libertarians are neither right-winged nor conservative. Perhaps this is the stem of your confusion?
 
And denying what every dictionary tells us only makes one ignorant.


Dictionary.com at least defines police as a civil organization.

The police aren't subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, they are subject to the civil law of their jurisdiction. Hence they are not a military organization.

They may act in a military fashion, they may have a military style chain of command but the police is not a military organization.

The problem is one of mindset. The military views the people it comes into conflict with as "the enemy" and largely deals with them by killing them. The proper mindset for policing is completely different.
 
Liberals/lefties have been concerned about the militarization of the police, pre-conviction property seizures, police accountability, the right to protest peacefully, racial profiling, sentencing disparities impacting minorities and poor people, criminalization of young people and are against the war of drugs for decades. In my view this is a more mature and nuanced view compared to the of the old anti-cop attitudes. It also reflects some of the successes in making the police more accountable and community oriented.

The right has become more anti-authoritarian since Obama was elected because they feel that conservatives are no longer in control of the establishment the way they used to be. Most of them will probably return to being authoritarian if and when Republicans/conservatives/white men get more of their power back.

Poor people, minorities and counter culture people have felt like the police are an occupational army for a very long time, now that they are worried about gun control and minorities in power, white conservatives are experiencing what it feels like.
Whats with the obsession with race?

Why 'dey gotta be white?
 
Obviously you didn't read the links. It's all stated therein.

You posted a link talking about a narcotic drugs convention in Vienna and a Wikipedia article discussing the War on Drugs in general.

Neither of these describe the "fallout" of the war on drugs and how it is the sole reason why there is violent crime in the inner city neighborhoods.

You also ignored my comment as to what you are implying via this.... So I'll ask a question instead...

Do you believe if the war on drugs ended tomorrow that we would see inner city crime-ridden gang-ridden neighborhoods become peaceful family friendly neighborhoods?
 
Arguably the beginning of the trend



"Feb. 18, 1986: A Los Angeles Police Department battering ram sits next to a South Los Angeles home damaged during a police raid. The house was suspected of being a center for drug dealing. A Uzi submachine gun and eight other firearms were found inside. A second nearby home also was raided. Seven suspects were detained.

It was the fifth time the six-ton armored vehicle equipped with a 14-foot steel battering ram had been used in LAPD raids."
LAPD battering ram - Framework - Photos and Video - Visual Storytelling from the Los Angeles Times

Did you miss the bolded part of your own post? That sort of manpower and armament is what the police are facing and you're complaining because the police respond in kind? What do you expect them to do, send the community service volunteers up to the door with cookies?

The American police must NEVER lose, they must never back down. When that starts happening, as giddy as it would make the Liberals, Americans are doomed. You fill the country with America hating foreigners, worship homegrown predatory cultures that have no respect for the law, the property of others or authority and you want the police disarmed?

Give the police whatever they want to do their job and go home safe, screw the Liberal whiners.

If you make it impossible for the police to protect Americans, you will then see the justifiable rise of nationwide vigilantism. If you would be more comfortable with that, then keep attacking the police.
 
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A better mouse trap begets a better mouse begets a better mouse trap...
 
Whats with the obsession with race?

Why 'dey gotta be white?

Many white conservatives feel that they should remain in a privileged position due to their race.
 
Many white conservatives feel that they should remain in a privileged position due to their race.

Put the race card back in the deck... Militarized police is not good for ANYONE, except maybe the cops (until people start fighting back, you can only push people so far)
 
Militarized police is not good for ANYONE, except maybe the cops (until people start fighting back, you can only push people so far)

Militarized police isn't good for criminals.......
 
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