View Poll Results: Are police units going too far by being overly militarized?

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  • Yes

    54 87.10%
  • No

    7 11.29%
  • My cat's name is mittens...

    1 1.61%
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Thread: Are Cops Too Militarized?

  1. #151
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by d0gbreath View Post
    Good post soup!

    I saw a TV documentary about the policing of the 1930s. Apparently the bank robber gangs had gotten a hold of some BAR 50s and Thompson sub-machine guns. The Police were no match using 38 stub-nosed specials. They had to upgrade their fire power just to be able to keep up with the gangs.

    I suppose that what we see today is that law enforcement never wants to play catch up again.

    The difference is that while Bonnie and Clyde were wanted dead of alive, the SWAT teams of today are being used in far lighter crimes. It's like they want to instill fear in the average law abiding citizen. This culminates in deaths in raids that used to just cause arrests.
    No Thompson's, Clyde's weapon of choice was the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) chambered for the 30-06 and the .45 ACP M-1911-A1 pistol.
    All were stolen form National Guard armories.

    Law enforcement officers back then were responsible for supplying their own firearms. During the 20's and 30's money was tight and the .38 Special revolver was the weapon most could afford. Usually with a six inch barrel not a snub nose revolver.

    As for today, it's interesting who these police chiefs are who are arming their departments with just not military full auto weapons but also with armored assault vehicles, most are liberal "progressive police chiefs."

    When I drive through the city of Monrovia, Ca. today which has a population of around 36,000 it's hard not to shake your head and breakout in a laugh when you see their black armored assault vehicle driving down a residential neighborhood with a machine gun turret on top.

  2. #152
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    colt 45 ACP 1911 is still seen by many who understand the topic as being the premier military or self defense handgun PERIOD

    and those two browning automatic rifles (20 rounds of 30-06) are more powerful than either the M16 or the AK 47

    a bit heavier but in terms of firepower, very few weapons you can easily carry can match it
    Yes I agree the 1911 ACP is the best hand gun ever made. I have several of them from Colt , Kimber and Springfield.

    John Browning who designed it was a genius, he also designed the M2 .50 cal machine gun still in use by the military.

    The thompson submachine gun has been around a LONG time as was the BAR two of which are in the photo ( along with stacks of loaded magazines ). The main difference between those " assault " weapons and today's popular weapons is caliber and complexity. From what old timers told me about the BAR and thompson they had many working parts which required more skill to dis - assemble, clean and re - assemble. Modern weapons are easier to maintain. Which is probably irrelevant to street gangs who likely spend little time cleaning their weapons anyways.

    Many criminals from earlier eras also favored shot guns. I've always been a litle puzzled why street gangs today and other viscious criminals prefer semi - autos. I suppose it has something to do movies and other media. Mel Gibson uses a Beretta in Lethal Weapon and everybody wants one. A sawed off shot gun is just about as easy to conceal but far more deadly if you're shooting in a crowd of two or more at close range. I suppose we should be a little relieved that violent criminals care more about what's cool looking as opposed to what is truly effective at killing.

    Back in the day of Dillinger and Bonnie/Clyde people understood there are a few murderous criminals who need to be dealt with. Yet somehow people were not as concerned with disarming the average citizen or permanently militarizing the police.

  3. #153
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    colt 45 ACP 1911 is still seen by many who understand the topic as being the premier military or self defense handgun PERIOD
    I'd steer clear of taking advice from any of them.

    If that's what they think, they don't understand the topic well enough.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

  4. #154
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    I'd steer clear of taking advice from any of them.

    If that's what they think, they don't understand the topic well enough.
    well I think there are pistols as good as the 1911 but nothing clearly superior. for self defense against one or two attackers it is hard to match short of a shotgun or carbine.



  5. #155
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well I think there are pistols as good as the 1911 but nothing clearly superior.
    I'm curious why you say that.

    I think I disagree but I have to make some assumptions in order to do so and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt in explaining your position before I run off on some diatribe that may be irrelevant.

    While I generally disagree with you on gun control policy I recognize that you're very knowledgeable when it comes to firearms, certainly more knowledgeable than I am in most respects, and I respect your opinion even if I don't always agree with you. I'd like to keep our "technical" discussions and our "policy" discussions separate.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

  6. #156
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    I'm curious why you say that.

    I think I disagree but I have to make some assumptions in order to do so and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt in explaining your position before I run off on some diatribe that may be irrelevant.

    While I generally disagree with you on gun control policy I recognize that you're very knowledgeable when it comes to firearms, certainly more knowledgeable than I am in most respects, and I respect your opinion even if I don't always agree with you. I'd like to keep our "technical" discussions and our "policy" discussions separate.

    Massad Ayoob called the 1911 "the black belt's weapon" for gun fighting meaning for experts it is ideal. I have close to a half million rounds through a pistol-many of them in high stress timed events. Now I shoot a SW M&P CORE in Stock steel and a CZ "Czechmate" Race gun in open class but I spent years shooting USPSA and "Bowling Pin" Events with various incarnations of the 1911 including a Colt Series 70 Wilson LE-K Comp and a Fred Craig built Para/Caspian 15 round 1911. Very few pistols have the natural pointing characteristics of the 1911 and the sliding-as opposed to pivoting-trigger is hard to match for pure speed shooting. Combined with the fact that the 1911 paired with 45 ACP is a

    1) very accurate round
    2) a low pressure round meaning much greater service life than stuff like the 40 SW
    3) and has proven stopping power even in military FMJ rounds

    you have a great combination of self defense

    additionally, unlike modern Double action.single action pistols-the trigger pull is constant on a 1911-unlike say a Beretta or Sig Sauer. sand while the Glocks and other striker fired weapons have a constant trigger pull, they aren' as smooth

    magazine changes on the 1911 are slightly slower due to the single stack magazine compared to the double stacked 9mm or 40 SW firearms though.

    the only argument against the 1911 as a service weapon is

    a) 45 ACP ammo is heavier than 9mm
    b) 1911s generally have lower capacity than 9mms

    for weak shooters, the recoil is more severe than a 9mm. however, the recoil on a 1911 in 45 ACP is less damaging to your joints than the recoil in the 40 SW.



  7. #157
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Seems every government agency and city now has a SWAT team. And SWAT activity has gone up by 1500% in the last two decades.

    John W. Whitehead: SWAT Team Mania: The War Against the American Citizen
    The United States of SWAT? | National Review Online

    Police departments are now being given surplus military vehicles too to wage war war against its own citizens.

    TN Police Departments Get Tank-Like Military Vehicles - NewsChannel5.com | Nashville News, Weather & Sports
    Leftover armored trucks from Iraq coming to local police agencies - NY Daily News

    SWAT teams now routinely use no-knock entry tactics and sometimes end up shooting innocent people when they enter the wrong house or due to faulty intel.

    Jose Guerena shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Five Unnecessary SWAT Team Raids Gone Terribly Wrong
    WND reports on SWAT raids on the innocent

    Let us remember one thing, cops are not military personnel, they are classified as civilians, like everybody else who isnt military. Why should they be issued military weapons and dress like an army of occupation? Should something be done about this?



    Way too militarized, way too trained to shoot first and ask questions later.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #158
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    When in our history did the American right wing begin the hard turn against law enforcement? At one time American conservatives and support for law enforcement went hand in hand. Now, its obvious that the hate for government that is part and parcel of libertarianism has been extended to law enforcement. When did this devolution happen?
    When the police force grew out of hand and started working against the People. Government goons are not to be trusted.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #159
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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes Maggie - back in the Sixties - some forty to fifty years ago, the left was the anti-law enforcement wing. So what made it switch over the last forty to fifty years?
    Liberals/lefties have been concerned about the militarization of the police, pre-conviction property seizures, police accountability, the right to protest peacefully, racial profiling, sentencing disparities impacting minorities and poor people, criminalization of young people and are against the war of drugs for decades. In my view this is a more mature and nuanced view compared to the of the old anti-cop attitudes. It also reflects some of the successes in making the police more accountable and community oriented.

    The right has become more anti-authoritarian since Obama was elected because they feel that conservatives are no longer in control of the establishment the way they used to be. Most of them will probably return to being authoritarian if and when Republicans/conservatives/white men get more of their power back.

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    Re: Are Cops Too Militarized?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    You have cops wearing military uniforms equipped with military weapons and treating fellow citizens like an occupational army and you wonder why some segments of society dont like it? Am I reading this right?
    Poor people, minorities and counter culture people have felt like the police are an occupational army for a very long time, now that they are worried about gun control and minorities in power, white conservatives are experiencing what it feels like.

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