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High school exit exams

Do you think exit exams are fair

  • Yes, we let kids off too easy, they need to prove themselves

    Votes: 27 60.0%

  • No, this can devastate and humiliate a teen

    Votes: 3 6.7%

  • It's only fair if the teen failed other classes

    Votes: 5 11.1%

  • The teen should still be able to walk just not get a diploma

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 9 20.0%
  • Total voters
    45
justabubba said:
actually, it was the system from our agrarian age; a time when families worked the farm. hence, the need to take summers off to tend to the crops
so, why the need for summers off today, when our kids are no longer needed to tend our crops in the field
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Because they need a break.
 
nota bene said:
I think it is. There are many college students, for example, who think that they deserve a passing grade just because they came to class every day. There are others who aren't even marginally prepared for college work but who blame their profs rather than themselves for deciding so long ago that they didn't "like" to read. They think it's unfair (and so do their helicopter parents) that they have to take remedial ("developmental") math classes for no credit before they can enroll in algebra.
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It has been a while since I've been in college, but I don't remember ever being able to pass just by attending classes. How is that philosophy working out for the students of today? Is blaming their own lack of success on their profs helping them graduate? If they can actually get away with drifting through four years, then the system is indeed in big trouble.

As for the remedial classes, I hear complaints about that all the time. It used to be that you had to know how to read, write, and do math in order to be accepted. Junior colleges were for remedial classes. Why do universities even accept students who aren't prepared?
 
Muhammed said:
Because they need a break.
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if that were actually true, our work force would need to vacation for the three months of summer
 
justabubba said:
in the information age, with most information at our fingertips, the need to teach research techniques to students has substantially diminished. as has the need to remember information that is readily available. teaching students to solve problems is much more difficult. now, instead of expecting the right answers, we should instead be expecting the students to formulate and ask the most appropriate questions
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They need practice in critical thinking. I don't know how to solve the problem of what I see now, which is a generation that is bereft of intellectual curiosity. I mean, they have none. WTF are they doing in college then? (Answer: Learning a trade.)

I emphatically disagree with your statement that "the need to teach research techniques to students has substantially diminished." To the contrary, the need has never been more pressing, and this is because of the availability of information. In particular, accurate and complete documentation must be taught; this is an essential component of any research.
 
justabubba said:
if that were actually true, our work force would need to vacation for the three months of summer
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Could you explain how you came to that ridiculous conclusion?
 
Muhammed said:
Could you explain how you came to that ridiculous conclusion?
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you said students need a 3 month summer break

workers should require the same if the vacation was based on need of a break
 
No, but not merely because it may humiliate the teen. I think it's a poor means of demonstrating knowledge and requiring it before graduation is foolish. Using it as a means of tracking? Absolutely, but no more.
 
Fiddytree said:
No, but not merely because it may humiliate the teen. I think it's a poor means of demonstrating knowledge and requiring it before graduation is foolish. Using it as a means of tracking? Absolutely, but no more.
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testing for presence of basic knowledge is foolish?

then why not hand out high school diplomas to every student upon their 18th birthday if there is no intention to require them to graduate with basic knowledge
 
justabubba said:
testing for presence of basic knowledge is foolish?

then why not hand out high school diplomas to every student upon their 18th birthday if there is no intention to require them to graduate with basic knowledge
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Do that in the classroom throughout your quarters and semesters. Do not pass students that should not pass. In our state we do not have such exams as a pre-requisite for graduation. Those exams capture a student's test-taking ability during the duration of the exam, but is severely limited in its usefulness and may hinder where it ought not.
 
herenow1 said:
Over the past several years some states have implemented passing exit exams be required for graduation. 26 states have made this a requirement.If a child passes all of their classes, even if they're an A B student, they can't walk or graduate b/c they didn't pass an exit exam. Some of the tests include questions the teachers haven't even covered. Granted you have 4 yrs to pass it, BUT not everyone does well on tests. Do you think this is fair? Do you think it's fair that a child goes to school, passes all his classes, graduates to the next grade each year, yet he/she can't walk all b/c they fail a test?
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nearly 40 years ago when my mom was at high school such exit exams had been applied to every student and many of those students are more knowledgeable individuals than the ones of new generation
 
Dittohead not! said:
It has been a while since I've been in college, but I don't remember ever being able to pass just by attending classes. How is that philosophy working out for the students of today? Is blaming their own lack of success on their profs helping them graduate? If they can actually get away with drifting through four years, then the system is indeed in big trouble.

As for the remedial classes, I hear complaints about that all the time. It used to be that you had to know how to read, write, and do math in order to be accepted. Junior colleges were for remedial classes. Why do universities even accept students who aren't prepared?
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The system is in big trouble. And one concern of all, I think, should be the quality of student that the professional schools may soon have to accept and what the consequences of that might be.
 
nota bene said:
The system is in big trouble. And one concern of all, I think, should be the quality of student that the professional schools may soon have to accept and what the consequences of that might be.
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I hope you're wrong, but have to admit that I graduated back in '73, and things might have changed a bit since then.
 
Fiddytree said:
Do that in the classroom throughout your quarters and semesters.
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i failed to note who advocated otherwise. please point such post out for my perusal, as i would want to know why failing students should not be retained

Do not pass students that should not pass.
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weird. before you insisted we should pass on as diploma wielding graduates those students who could not pass a test at the conclusion of high school

In our state we do not have such exams as a pre-requisite for graduation.
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not sure where you are on that. do you support the refusal to identify those who meet the employers'/universities' expectations for a high school graduate or would you want your state to know which portion of its high school students are unable to leave school with the basic knowledge base which had been provided

Those exams capture a student's test-taking ability during the duration of the exam,
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no, that test assesses to what degree the prospective graduate has actually learned what has been presented

... but is severely limited in its usefulness and may hinder where it ought not.
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how is it not useful to know which of the prospective graduates have actually acquired an adequate base of knowledge to propel them into careers and/or universities, as well as life

and how does it hinder anyone other than the students who spent at least four years in high school and are about to leave without being sufficiently educated
 
So you have a list of required classes and corresponding final exams yet somehow need an "exit exam" to graduate. What a load of ****. This is just an admission that the teachers or required classes failed
 
I wonder how many people ever used algebra as adults. Most don't. I would have been better off apprenticing at 14 with a journeyman, instead of stirring up trouble or figuring how to get away with cutting school/classes. This was late 50's and early 60's. I got my military ged and took classes later on using the G.I. bill when I was more mature. I'm not sure if these comments really fit in this thread, except that problems with a large percentage of boys after they are age 12 or 13 is a major problem in almost all schools, and it takes away from the learning of serious students. I voted other.
 
chromium said:
So you have a list of required classes and corresponding final exams yet somehow need an "exit exam" to graduate. What a load of ****.
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so, your position is completing two out the three requirements for graduation should be enough
tell us why passing the exit exam should be found unnecessary

This is just an admission that the teachers or required classes failed
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no
it's proof that the student did not adequately learn the required material in order to receive his/her diploma

now, if you make the case that the other students within the failing student's cohort also did not meet the requirements, then there would appear to be legitimate basis to blame the teaching
but if, as is almost always the case, other students succeeded, after sitting in the same classes, with the same teachers, the student's failure cannot reasonably be attributed to the quality of instruction
 
justabubba said:
so, your position is completing two out the three requirements for graduation should be enough
tell us why passing the exit exam should be found unnecessary


no
it's proof that the student did not adequately learn the required material in order to receive his/her diploma

now, if you make the case that the other students within the failing student's cohort also did not meet the requirements, then there would appear to be legitimate basis to blame the teaching
but if, as is almost always the case, other students succeeded, after sitting in the same classes, with the same teachers, the student's failure cannot reasonably be attributed to the quality of instruction
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The final exam in the corresponding classes should be able to prove that. You could just add any questions from the exit exam onto the finals and there, problem solved. Any "exit exam" would be just repeating what they were already tested on, unless the questions are unfairly based on material they were never taught in those required classes, or based on non-required classes, or the teachers did a lousy job designing the tests. It's not for the same purpose as ACT/SAT.
 
herenow1 said:
Over the past several years some states have implemented passing exit exams be required for graduation. 26 states have made this a requirement.If a child passes all of their classes, even if they're an A B student, they can't walk or graduate b/c they didn't pass an exit exam. Some of the tests include questions the teachers haven't even covered. Granted you have 4 yrs to pass it, BUT not everyone does well on tests. Do you think this is fair? Do you think it's fair that a child goes to school, passes all his classes, graduates to the next grade each year, yet he/she can't walk all b/c they fail a test?
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It's pointless. School has already turned into nothing but a bunch of standardized tests, and they don't work because we just keep dropping the standard as our schools get worse.

Besides that, it's way too late by then. What are you gonna do with what is now probably an adult who fails the exam? If someone fell so far behind they can't pass public school, the help should have started 10 years sooner.

Standardized testing has already become a replacement for real learning. I think it is partly to blame for our dropping standards -- it forces teachers to just regurgitate future test answers and it gives government and administrators a way to jimmy the results and say we're doing fine, rather than letting teachers work with students in the way they feel is best.

We need less emphasis on testing, not more.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
It's pointless. School has already turned into nothing but a bunch of standardized tests, and they don't work because we just keep dropping the standard as our schools get worse.

Besides that, it's way too late by then. What are you gonna do with what is now probably an adult who fails the exam? If someone fell so far behind they can't pass public school, the help should have started 10 years sooner.

Standardized testing has already become a replacement for real learning. I think it is partly to blame for our dropping standards -- it forces teachers to just regurgitate future test answers and it gives government and administrators a way to jimmy the results and say we're doing fine, rather than letting teachers work with students in the way they feel is best.

We need less emphasis on testing, not more.
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If somehow schools could be categorized based on how well their students do on higher learning entrance exams and when looking for work, it might more accurately indicate how much they actually learned.

Granted college entrance exams are in some ways more of the same (tests), and job interviews are just another form of test...kinda.

Perhaps even give students a college entrance exam as a finial test in High School? FWIW...
 
The Mark said:
If somehow schools could be categorized based on how well their students do on higher learning entrance exams and when looking for work, it might more accurately indicate how much they actually learned.

Granted college entrance exams are in some ways more of the same (tests), and job interviews are just another form of test...kinda.

Perhaps even give students a college entrance exam as a finial test in High School? FWIW...
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As a former college tutor, I can tell you that won't work either, at least not with the way they're currently done. All kinds of people pass entrance exams who are nowhere near ready to be in college.

Speaking to literacy, which is the area I know best, the main problem is that the tests don't require novel construction. They're mostly fill in the blank. There are plenty of people who can fill in a blank, but can't construct a proper sentence. I had them in my sessions every day.
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
As a former college tutor, I can tell you that won't work either, at least not with the way they're currently done. All kinds of people pass entrance exams who are nowhere near ready to be in college.

Speaking to literacy, which is the area I know best, the main problem is that the tests don't require novel construction. They're mostly fill in the blank. There are plenty of people who can fill in a blank, but can't construct a proper sentence. I had them in my sessions every day.
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That's because college entrance exams are not designed as a pass/fail, but rather to determine what classes the prospective student needs to get up to speed.

Which would also show what they had actually learned (or not).
 
The Mark said:
That's because college entrance exams are not designed as a pass/fail, but rather to determine what classes the prospective student needs to get up to speed.

Which would also show what they had actually learned (or not).
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Yup. But it's the same general theory of testing they use in secondary school, as of now. In order for tests to mean anything, the entire concept of how we test has to be overhauled.

I think the number of them should be drastically reduced, give teachers more freedom, and make them less standardized and more novel in order to reflect true comprehension when they are given (yes, it'd take longer, but there'd be less of them and they would be more accurate).
 
SmokeAndMirrors said:
Yup. But it's the same general theory of testing they use in secondary school, as of now. In order for tests to mean anything, the entire concept of how we test has to be overhauled.

I think the number of them should be drastically reduced, give teachers more freedom, and make them less standardized and more novel in order to reflect true comprehension when they are given (yes, it'd take longer, but there'd be less of them and they would be more accurate).
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I'm not sure if this might apply, but...

I was homeschooled through high school (pros and cons there).

Here in PA, homeschooled students must be evaluated by someone (not clear on what kind of credentials they need, but the "evaluator"(s) my parents used had all been teachers, previously) before they can progress to the next "grade".

In my experience, the evaluator would examine a portfolio of the studies and activities the student (myself, for example) had performed over the past year, make some suggestions for the next year, and give them a "pass".


Neither myself nor my brothers ever encountered a "fail" situation, but I suppose it is possible.
 
chromium said:
The final exam in the corresponding classes should be able to prove that. You could just add any questions from the exit exam onto the finals and there, problem solved. Any "exit exam" would be just repeating what they were already tested on, unless the questions are unfairly based on material they were never taught in those required classes, or based on non-required classes, or the teachers did a lousy job designing the tests. It's not for the same purpose as ACT/SAT.
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your argument is poorly constructed
you insist that the exit exam should be a compilation from previous tests, which you presume the student passed
but if the student passed those tests, would he/she not also be expected to pass the final exam covering the same material?
and if they cannot do so, then the valid conclusion is the student did not master the basic material, rendering them ineligible to receive a diploma
 
The Mark said:
I'm not sure if this might apply, but...

I was homeschooled through high school (pros and cons there).

Here in PA, homeschooled students must be evaluated by someone (not clear on what kind of credentials they need, but the "evaluator"(s) my parents used had all been teachers, previously) before they can progress to the next "grade".

In my experience, the evaluator would examine a portfolio of the studies and activities the student (myself, for example) had performed over the past year, make some suggestions for the next year, and give them a "pass".

Neither myself nor my brothers ever encountered a "fail" situation, but I suppose it is possible.
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I think that would be preferable over what we do now in public school, although I know in some states it's far too easy to pass. And this is true even of more novel school tests -- I passed an AP exam having not studied the subject in over 6 months and on tremendous amounts of drugs (temporary opioid pain meds, not the for-fun kind). I don't think I deserved to pass, honestly. I'm plenty bright, but I wasn't up to par in the subject at the time, and I barely even remember taking the test.

I think ultimately, no one knows their students better than their teacher -- or at least that's how it should be. I can tell you my own school experience would have been drastically different -- and drastically better -- if my teachers had more ability to put me where they thought I should be. The bureaucracy held them back, and ultimately that affected the quality of the education I got. I was lucky enough to get probably more schooling at home than I did at school, but if that hadn't been the case, I really can't tell you where I'd be at this point.
 
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