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Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 30 41.1%

  • No

    Votes: 43 58.9%
  • Total voters
    73
ernst barkmann said:
there are no rights to practice slavery.

there is a right to property....slaves were considered property.
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So the 13th amendment took away the rights of individuals to own humans as property, correct?
 
Objective Voice said:
I think what confuses most people about a democratic form of government versus a republic is a lack of understanding as to how such governments are designed to function. Put simply, although both forms of government hold free elections to choose representatives to act on behalf of the people, in a democracy it's usually "majority rule" and the rules can be changed nearly at a whim, whereas, in a republic both the majority and the minority are suppose to come up with "best solutions" to govern and the rules aren't so easily broken. This is why it's so frustrating for many Americans to see Congress act in such a dysfunctional fashion.

But I digress...

To the point of this thread, was Karl Marx right concerning capitalism? Yes. When economic power is concentrated with a small few and the majority of a nation's citizens are left wanting, when economic inequality becomes widespread, and when the labor force is no longer the driver of a national economy which itself is designed to function based on "consumption and debt", then yes, Karl Marx was absolutely right.

The question now is will those in power see the error of their ways - greed - and start giving back to those they owe a large part of their success based primarily on their labor?
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our government is run on the a GUISE of democracy, it really is run by an oligarchy of special interest, or as James Madison would say, faction.

guise
gīz/
noun
noun: guise; plural noun: guises

an external form, appearance, or manner of presentation, typically concealing the true nature of something.

this special interest..... seduces, beguiles, and persuades those who are supposed to be acting in the interest of the people, ...to do things which are not in there interest.....since the senate is no longer in the hands of the states.....this is allowed to happen.

because special interest only has to seduce, beguile, and persuade 1 entity of power "the people"......were as under a true republican form of government , that special interest has to try to seduce, beguile, and persuade 2 entities of power.........."the people", and "the states", which the 2 ......do not care about the others interest

so in order for congress to pass legislation[Law], the house and the senate must "COME TOGETHER"...and agree on legislation that is in the interest of BOTH.......this makes it difficult, for special interest .....to control our government

this division of power is what the real nature of republican government is.....
 
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MildSteel said:
So the 13th amendment took away the rights of individuals to own humans as property, correct?
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the 14th made slaves citiznes of the u.s. and citizens of states..two types of citizens.

since they are citizens, they have rights and privileges and immunities as all Americans.
 
ernst barkmann said:
the 14th made slaves citiznes of the u.s. and citizens of states..two types of citizens.

since they are citizens, they have rights and privileges and immunities as all Americans.
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But the 13th amendment specifically took away the rights of individuals to own humans as property, correct?
 
Objective Voice said:
Forced equality...is that your way of saying those who have greater wealth shouldn't be forced to share? In that, I agree. People should give because they want to, not because they're forced to. But I wouldn't go too far as to say people are never satisfied with equality. It depends on what is being defined as "equal".
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That is partially what i mean. To give is much better than being forced to give. But the other part is giving and taking away chances. In true communism, everyone fills a role because it is necessary. The people are not give the opportunity to make more money, own land, rise in the world. This is what i consider forced equality, when the people are not even giving the option to succeed.
 
ernst barkmann said:
it made slaves no longer property ..correct.
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That is correct, because it took away the rights of individuals to own humans as slaves. In particular, the text explicitly forbids the practice of slavery in the US

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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Therefore, contrary to your assertion that the federal government does not have power in the lives, liberty, and property of people, the federal government does indeed have such power.
 
MildSteel said:
Therefore, contrary to your assertion that the federal government does not have power in the lives, liberty, and property of people, the federal government does indeed have such power.
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incorrect ...why?

i asked the question...... do you see a power [powers of congress] in article 1 section 8 ,where it gives the federal government authority over the lifes, liberty, and property of the people..............the answer is NO!

amendment 14 is not a power of the federal government, it placing a restriction on state governments, not to deny privileges and immunities/ civil rights....... to the people

the 14th makes it legal for government sanctioned slavery, because it is a constitutional violation.........the constitution does not...again!.........does not apply to the people.

when a person violates the rights of other person...it is a CRIME!


when jim crow laws were enacted,...it was state government sanctioning discrimination, telling citizens they MUST discriminate
 
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ernst barkmann said:
incorrect ...why?

i asked the question...... do you see a power [powers of congress] in article 1 section 8 ,where it gives the federal government authority over the lifes, liberty, and property of the people..............the answer is NO!

amendment 14 is not a power of the federal government, it placing a restriction on state governments, not to deny privileges and immunities/ civil rights....... to the people

the 14th makes it illegal for government sanctioned slavery, because it is a constitutional violation.........the constitution does not...again!.........does not apply to the people.

when a person violates the rights of other person...it is a CRIME!


when jim crow laws were enacted,...it was state government sanctioning discrimination, telling citizens they MUST discriminate
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correction to the above
 
ernst barkmann said:
incorrect ...why?

i asked the question...... do you see a power [powers of congress] in article 1 section 8 ,where it gives the federal government authority over the lifes, liberty, and property of the people..............the answer is NO!

amendment 14 is not a power of the federal government, it placing a restriction on state governments, not to deny privileges and immunities/ civil rights....... to the people

the 14th makes it legal for government sanctioned slavery, because it is a constitutional violation.........the constitution does not...again!.........does not apply to the people.

when a person violates the rights of other person...it is a CRIME!


when jim crow laws were enacted,...it was state government sanctioning discrimination, telling citizens they MUST discriminate
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I see you edited your response.

Congress has power to enact laws that affect the lives, liberty, and property of people. Those laws can deprive you of your life, your property and your liberty and put you in prison or even kill you. So honestly, I think it's pretty ridiculous to say the Congress has no such power under the Constitution. The Constitution gives the Federal government the power to tax citizens. When I pay income tax, they are taking my property. Now Wesley Snipes thought the government had no such power, but we know how well that went for him.

Moreover, the 13th amendment states in no ambiguous terms that slavery shall not exist in the United States. Again the exact text

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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That is not a merely a restriction on government, it is a blanket restriction on individuals as well. It's an absolute statement that slavery shall not exist. Therefore your assertion that the Federal government does not have power over peoples lives, liberty, and property is false.
 
mildsteel said:
i see you edited your response.

Congress has power to enact laws that affect the lives, liberty, and property of people. Those laws can deprive you of your life, your property and your liberty and put you in prison or even kill you. So honestly, i think it's pretty ridiculous to say the congress has no such power under the constitution. The constitution gives the federal government the power to tax citizens. When i pay income tax, they are taking my property. Now wesley snipes thought the government had no such power, but we know how well that went for him.

Moreover, the 13th amendment states in no ambiguous terms that slavery shall not exist in the united states. Again the exact text



that is not a merely a restriction on government, it is a blanket restriction on individuals as well. It's an absolute statement that slavery shall not exist. Therefore your assertion that the federal government does not have power over peoples lives, liberty, and property is false.
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because i put legal, when it is illegal...
 
MildSteel said:
Congress has power to enact laws that affect the lives, liberty, and property of people. Those laws can deprive you of your life, your property and your liberty and put you in prison or even kill you. So honestly, I think it's pretty ridiculous to say the Congress has no such power under the Constitution. The Constitution gives the Federal government the power to tax citizens. When I pay income tax, they are taking my property. Now Wesley Snipes thought the government had no such power, but we know how well that went for him.
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you statement is worded, rather funny dont you think...here is your "wording" ..........enact laws that affect the lives, liberty, and property of people.

now what does "effect" mean to you.......do they have legislative powers,article 1 section 8 to make laws on your land, on you personally, on your personal property......NO!....if so, where are they listed in the constitution.

again, i stated article 1 section 8...income taxes are in the 16th amendment.giving them the power to tax you IF you have an income...


MildSteel said:
Moreover, the 13th amendment states in no ambiguous terms that slavery shall not exist in the United States. Again the exact text
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SLAVERY OR INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE.........MEANS NO CITIZEN CAN BE FORCED TO WORK FOR ANOTHER CITIZEN UNLESS CONVICTED OF A CRIME.

THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT LIMIT THE PEOPLE.....if i tried to make a slave of you ,its a crime, which the state government by constitutional law, is to see it does not take place, which why criminal law is written.

MildSteel said:
That is not a merely a restriction on government, it is a blanket restriction on individuals as well. It's an absolute statement that slavery shall not exist. Therefore your assertion that the Federal government does not have power over peoples lives, liberty, and property is false.
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wrong!........the Constitution does not apply to citizens.............NO CITIZEN CAN VIOLATE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.............A CITIZEN CAN ONLY COMMIT A CRIME.
 
MildSteel said:
Therefore I said that capitalists need to operate within certain constraints and need to make sure that workers needs are properly accommodated. Otherwise, you just end up with an tyrannical oligarchy based on money.
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You mean like what we're getting now, now that corporations can spend as much as they want on federal, state, and even local elections. Think about how that affects elections of judges....
 
ernst barkmann said:
because i put legal, when it is illegal...
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That's not the one I was talking about. I'm talking about the edit of post #206 where you took out the word "correct." It's ok tho.
 
ernst barkmann said:
you statement is worded, rather funny dont you think...here is your "wording" ..........enact laws that affect the lives, liberty, and property of people.

now what does "effect" mean to you.......do they have legislative powers,article 1 section 8 to make laws on your land, on you personally, on your personal property......NO!....if so, where are they listed in the constitution.

again, i stated article 1 section 8...income taxes are in the 16th amendment.giving them the power to tax you IF you have an income...
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Your income is your property. Congress has the power to tax your income. Meaning they can take your income, your property, away from you. And they do exactly that. Congress establishes the tax code. So to say Congress has no power to enact laws that affect your property is not correct.

ernst barkmann said:
SLAVERY OR INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE.........MEANS NO CITIZEN CAN BE FORCED TO WORK FOR ANOTHER CITIZEN UNLESS CONVICTED OF A CRIME.

THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT LIMIT THE PEOPLE.....if i tried to make a slave of you ,its a crime, which the state government by constitutional law, is to see it does not take place, which why criminal law is written.
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Again, the 13th amendment verbatim

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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Notice the wording here. There is no restriction on Congress here. It is a blanket restriction on the whole of the United States. Slavery is not to exist. It does indeed limit people. There is no doubt about it.

ernst barkmann said:
wrong!........the Constitution does not apply to citizens.............NO CITIZEN CAN VIOLATE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.............A CITIZEN CAN ONLY COMMIT A CRIME.
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No, you are wrong, because what you said is that the Federal government does not have authority in the lives, liberty and property of people. It indeed it does has such authority. Now you can say that a person who tries to practice slavery has not committed a constitutional violation, and technically speaking that may be true, but practically speaking the Constitution banned the practice of slavery, and because of the authority of the Constitution, no government in the United States can permit slavery. Therefore, it is the Constitution that is ultimately exercising authority over people's lives, liberty, and property. If it was up to the states, they would not have done so. But because of the Constitution, they are forced to comply, which means that the citizens of the United States must comply as well.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
You mean like what we're getting now, now that corporations can spend as much as they want on federal, state, and even local elections. Think about how that affects elections of judges....
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That's not capitalism, that's corporatism. Paying off the government to kill competition and rule the land is almost the exact opposite of what a capitalist society would entail. America is in fact an oligarchy as a result of the excessive corporatism. I fail to see how it can still be called a democracy.
 
MildSteel said:
Your income is your property. Congress has the power to tax your income. Meaning they can take your income, your property, away from you. And they do exactly that. Congress establishes the tax code. So to say Congress has no power to enact laws that affect your property is not correct.
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again this power is not in article 1 section 8...it is the 16th amendment giving congress the power to tax income.

does this power give congress the authority to lay taxes your land...no, ....to make laws on the backs of the people concerning their personal life's, liberty or property...no!.......IE healthcare, EPA, .....NO!



MildSteel said:
Again, the 13th amendment verbatim

Notice the wording here. There is no restriction on Congress here. It is a blanket restriction on the whole of the United States. Slavery is not to exist. It does indeed limit people. There is no doubt about it.
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constitution are not written for people..... but government only........

slavery existed in america because states allowed it, ...just as they allowed jim crow laws......the constitution does not limit the people at all.

if i make you a slave...its a crime...not a constitutional violation.

BY THE WAY!!!!!.........I AKSED YOU BEFORE, AND YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED....WHERE IN ARTILE 1 SECTION 8 DOES GIVE CONGRESS POWER OVER THE PEOPLE.........GIVE ME AN ANSWER.

MildSteel said:
No, you are wrong, because what you said is that the Federal government does not have authority in the lives, liberty and property of people. It indeed it does has such authority. Now you can say that a person who tries to practice slavery has not committed a constitutional violation, and technically speaking that may be true, but practically speaking the Constitution banned the practice of slavery, and because of the authority of the Constitution, no government in the United States can permit slavery. Therefore, it is the Constitution that is ultimately exercising authority over people's lives, liberty, and property. If it was up to the states, they would not have done so. But because of the Constitution, they are forced to comply, which means that the citizens of the United States must comply as well.
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NAME FOR ME CITIZENS WHO HAVE VIOLATED CONSTITUTIONAL LAW????........DO NOT GIVE ME FEDERAL LAW!

THE CONSTITUTION ONLY GIVES THE CONGRESS THE ABILITY TO MAKE FEDERAL LAWS, ON PEOPLE ....iIF...IF....YOU COUNTERFEIT, TREASON,. PiRACY, OR CHEAT ON INCOME TAX....AND THAT IS ALL!
 
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ernst barkmann said:
again this power is not in article 1 section 8...it is the 16th amendment giving congress the power to tax income.

does this power give congress the authority to lay taxes your land...no, ....to make laws on the backs of the people concerning their personal life's, liberty or property...no!.......IE healthcare, EPA, .....NO!
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Regardless of where it is, it is in the constitution, and indeed Congress has the power over your income, WHICH IS YOUR PROPERTY.

ernst barkmann said:
constitution are not written for people..... but government only........

slavery existed in america because states allowed it, ...just as they allowed jim crow laws......the constitution does not limit the people at all.

if i make you a slave...its a crime...not a constitutional violation.
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Governments are there to control, limit, what people can do. And because the constitution does indeed control government, the ultimate effect of that control is to control people. It's irrelevant whether it's technically a constitutional violation, because the constitution ultimately laid down the law, and as a result all citizens in the US must follow, governments as well.

ernst barkmann said:
BY THE WAY!!!!!.........I AKSED YOU BEFORE, AND YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED....WHERE IN ARTILE 1 SECTION 8 DOES GIVE CONGRESS POWER OVER THE PEOPLE.........GIVE ME AN ANSWER.
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I'm going to answer you again, Congress has the power to tax citizens. That is authority, power, over citizens property. It does not matter where in the constitution it is. That power is in the constitution.

ernst barkmann said:
NAME FOR ME CITIZENS WHO HAVE VIOLATED CONSTITUTIONAL LAW????........DO NOT GIVE ME FEDERAL LAW!

THE CONSTITUTION ONLY GIVES THE CONGRESS THE ABILITY TO MAKE FEDERAL LAWS, ON PEOPLE ....iIF...IF....YOU COUNTERFEIT, TREASON,. PRICY, OR CHEAT ON INCOME TAX....AND THAT IS ALL!
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And again, for the umpteenth time, it's irrelevant whether it's a constitutional violation if a citizen attempts to practice slavery. As a result of the authority of the constitution, slavery is prohibited in the United States. The practical effect, regardless of whether it is a constitutional violation, is that citizens cannot practice slavery.
 
MildSteel said:
Regardless of where it is, it is in the constitution, and indeed Congress has the power over your income, WHICH IS YOUR PROPERTY.



Governments are there to control, limit, what people can do. And because the constitution does indeed control government, the ultimate effect of that control is to control people. It's irrelevant whether it's technically a constitutional violation, because the constitution ultimately laid down the law, and as a result all citizens in the US must follow, governments as well.



I'm going to answer you again, Congress has the power to tax citizens. That is authority, power, over citizens property. It does not matter where in the constitution it is. That power is in the constitution.



And again, for the umpteenth time, it's irrelevant whether it's a constitutional violation if a citizen attempts to practice slavery. As a result of the authority of the constitution, slavery is prohibited in the United States. The practical effect, regardless of whether it is a constitutional violation, is that citizens cannot practice slavery.
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congress has the power to tax your income..ie your property..yes...it has no power to be involve in your persona life!......concerning the your life ,your liberty or your property....land, vehicles, things you create, or earn by labor, .explain how the EPA, CAN make laws over my land?

the federal government is given no control over the people,that is false, people were to be govern by state government which are close to the people.

where is the power to lay legalization on a person's land. his body. his health, ..no where!

slavery is prohibited, because its a CRIME!!!

CRIMINAL law , enforces constitutional law


so show me, where in constitutional law...all this power is!
 
law said:
That's not capitalism, that's corporatism. Paying off the government to kill competition and rule the land is almost the exact opposite of what a capitalist society would entail. America is in fact an oligarchy as a result of the excessive corporatism. I fail to see how it can still be called a democracy.
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I quite agree...but it is deregulated capitalism that allowed this rampant corporatism. If you'll think about it, who was it that supported Citizens United? The conservatives on the Supreme Court, and the GOP, and the Tea Party organizations...and most conservatives. America's status as an oligarchy is on y'all's heads.
 
ernst barkmann said:
congress has the power to tax your income..ie your property..yes...it has no power to be involve in your persona life!......concerning the your life ,your liberty or your property....land, vehicles, things you create, or earn by labor, .explain how the EPA, CAN make laws over my land?
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When someone takes my money they are involved in my personal life. When the federal government takes my money they are involved in my personal life. When Wesley Snipes did not pay his taxes they threw him in prison. That's involved in his personal life. It is an absurd notion to say that congress has no power over a citizen's personal life.

ernst barkmann said:
the federal government is given no control over the people,that is false, people were to be govern by state government which are close to the people.
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The government can take your money. You can't just take money from people and not have any control over them. If the federal government didn't have some control over people, no one would pay taxes. What you are saying makes so sense whatsoever.

ernst barkmann said:
where is the power to lay legalization on a person's land. his body. his health, ..no where!

slavery is prohibited, because its a CRIME!!!

CRIMINAL law , enforces constitutional law


so show me, where in constitutional law...all this power is!
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Again, taxing people is taking people's money. The money is people's property, so the federal government does have the power. Not only that but the 13th amendment clearly says there is to be no slavery in the US. People who had slaves as property could no longer do so. That is power over property. The federal government has all kind of control over people. The federal government can MAKE you serve in the armed forces. That is direct control over your life. I don't see how you can expect anyone to believe otherwise.
 
MildSteel said:
When someone takes my money they are involved in my personal life. When the federal government takes my money they are involved in my personal life. When Wesley Snipes did not pay his taxes they threw him in prison. That's involved in his personal life. It is an absurd notion to say that congress has no power over a citizen's

personal life.
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and what was my argument, when i said the federal government has no authority in the life's liberty and property of the people......what do i always talk about the interpretation of the constitution by the founders.

i have said several times on this forum, by placing a income on the people, government has the ability to control them.......as i have said many times"...the power to tax is the power to destroy", but even though they have the income tax, that does not give them authority to levy laws on the backs of people which does not concern taxes.



MildSteel said:
The government can take your money. You can't just take money from people and not have any control over them. If the federal government didn't have some control over people, no one would pay taxes. What you are saying makes so sense whatsoever.
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the Constitution authorizes them to take money...by creating laws concerning taxes.......other then that the congress has no authority over the people...notice i said congress, not the executive branch or judicial.

why would the founders throw off the the centralized power of a king, to turn around an put on the centralized power of a federal government........simple they didn't..... states where to govern their own people independently. but staying inside constitutional law.



MildSteel said:
Again, taxing people is taking people's money. The money is people's property, so the federal government does have the power. Not only that but the 13th amendment clearly says there is to be no slavery in the US. People who had slaves as property could no longer do so. That is power over property. The federal government has all kind of control over people. The federal government can MAKE you serve in the armed forces. That is direct control over your life. I don't see how you can expect anyone to believe otherwise.
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again you are wrong, does the constitution mention people in the 16th amendment concerning taxes.....saying the people income will be taxed, does the 13th say the people will not have slaves...no

the constitution makes it unconstitutional.....(constitutional law here).......for governments to not allow slavery

the constitution creates federalism , the separation of powers between the federal government and state government, it created no relationship between the people and the federal government.

again show me where the federal government is given power over the people, ...the federal government is not even given power over the states in the constitution.
 
Excon said:
That is not what is being done.
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That is exactly what is being done.



It belongs to them, and they are paying taxes on it. (Even though they shouldn't have to, as that is counter to ownership.)
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They pay some tax on it but nothing close to the full value. At the same time, we pay taxes on things we should pay no tax on to make up for the loss in our common wealth (property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, etc.).

(Even though they shouldn't have to, as that is counter to ownership.)
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Ownership isn't the end-all-be-all. Masters once owned slaves. Kings once owned countries. Ownership is fine as long as it is the rightful owner. The value of a hospital or road does not belong to a land speculator.

No it shouldn't be discouraged.
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Why not?

What an absurd thing to say. It shows no such thing.
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That is your opinion.

iLOL :doh
No. That was me putting your opinion into perspective.
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Your perspective.

Too bad.
It isn't outrageous, and like I said it is how much we need; As much as we need to project our power and support our interests and continue research and development so we can keep it that way for a good long time.
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I don't believe you have answered my question: How much defense spending is enough?
 
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