View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

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Thread: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  1. #491
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    1. What did you ask Marx? This is Complete nonsense, the COmmunist Manifesto was written as a political pamphlet years before Kapital, Kapital was an economic volume describing how capitalism Works. You're just making **** up here, making up conspiracy theories, instead of ACTUALLY dealing With the analysis IN Capital ... something I never see neo-liberals actually do.
    the Manifesto of the Communist party goes to great lengths to whine about Capitalism. Then later Marx writes a volume about Capitalism. Dude theres no conspiracy its ****ing in the history books. Dont deny the obvious dude it does nothing for your arguments. Everyone knows that Das Kapital is in support of Communism for ****s sake. Now you might have an argument if Das Kapital was written prior to the Manifesto.
    2. Preyed on them? What are you talking about? '
    Marx wanted everyone to accept his philosophies about society. The best population to indoctrinate are the ones that are suffering at the hands of the rich and powerful. So Marx created a philosophy that catered to the part of society that he believed through his writings would rise up and end all that he despised. It is classic social manipulation. Much like rallying a population behind patriotism or religion. Which is something that Marx talked about and knew well. It must of pained him to need to tell the world that religion is a opiate while knowing the he needed the opiate of blind anger to bolster support for his philosophies.

    3. I can tell you that Marx was right, and I can give examples, can you give any examples on Capital or where he was wrong? (I can), or can you show that his overall thesis was wrong? So far you haven't shown anything other than making ad hominum attacks on him.
    I am not in a debate with Karl Marx, I am actually typing to a what I suspect is a living being (you).

    Let me point out that Marx always talked about unfettered Capitalism. So to his credit unfettered Capitalism is dead. But he failed to note that Capitalism can be regulated. Which is understandable since he couldnt acknowledge something that undermines the Communist Party. You must know that Marx's goal was for Communism to spread right? Why do you think that Marx and Engels wrote the Communist manifesto? The manifesto was for a political party. Political parties do what?


    But the biggest folly of Marx is Communism itself. See for Communism to exist in the way that Marx predicted Marx needed Capitalism to exist as unfettered and unregulated. In Marx's time that seemed to be the direction that Capitalism was going. But Capitalism has never actually existed in modern society as a unfettered unregulated economic system. SO in order for anyone to accept Marx's predictions about Capitalism one would need to disconnect from history and replace it with the antiqued meanderings of a dead man that never saw or understood modern society. Its much like Americas forefathers could not fathom the complexities of modern America using their antiqued knowledge that they had while lived so long a go. That isnt to say though that Marx and this countries forefathers didnt get some thing correct in their predictions. Marx makes a lot of sense if we frame Capitalism as being unfettered instead of regulated. Though his predictions of the eventual slide into Socialism and Communism are silly since we could just regulate Capitalism instead. it certainly isnt social science law that Capitalism will take the path that Marx predicted. More like wishful thinking. I mean it is possible that something other than Socialism/Communism could be invented that replaces Capitalism. It was extremely short sighted and biased of Marx to assume that his model could be the only model.

    So in that context I am not a strong supporter of Capitalism because certainly a better economic system could be invented in the future. But Socialism and Communism are poor replacements that are not any better than Capitalism, no reason to go there.

  2. #492
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    He was correct in his criticism of the current state of capitalism, but he was incorrect in that capitalism needed to be totally overhauled in order to protect the rights of the proletariat.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

  3. #493
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    the Manifesto of the Communist party goes to great lengths to whine about Capitalism.
    Actually the first chapter and half of the manifesto is actually praising of capitalism. Says it increased productivity, built up industry, improved trade, freed the serfs, ended monopolies.


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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    He was correct in his criticism of the current state of capitalism, but he was incorrect in that capitalism needed to be totally overhauled in order to protect the rights of the proletariat.
    I think he was incorrect on that only a violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat is needed to transform from a capitalist to socialist society. I instead look to Engels later in his life when he opened up and accepted a more gradualist view of socialism being possible.


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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I think he was incorrect on that only a violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat is needed to transform from a capitalist to socialist society. I instead look to Engels later in his life when he opened up and accepted a more gradualist view of socialism being possible.
    I don't really think that the complete and total abolition of capitalism is necessary to maintain the rights of the worker, (For example, I don't think total abolition of private property rights is necessary) but eliminating absolutist capitalism is necessary in areas such as healthcare, energy, etc. But regardless, if socialism were to be implemented, democratic means would be by far preferable to a revolution.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    I don't really think that the complete and total abolition of capitalism is necessary to maintain the rights of the worker, (For example, I don't think total abolition of private property rights is necessary) but eliminating absolutist capitalism is necessary in areas such as healthcare, energy, etc. But regardless, if socialism were to be implemented, democratic means would be by far preferable to a revolution.
    One must take into account that when people think of private property they think of personal property. Private property and personal property are not the same. Marx does not wish to get rid of personal property.


  7. #497
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Actually the first chapter and half of the manifesto is actually praising of capitalism. Says it increased productivity, built up industry, improved trade, freed the serfs, ended monopolies.
    Be honest though they didnt stop there did they? All that ranting and all about revolution was centered on attacking Capitalism and dismantling it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    I think he was incorrect on that only a violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat is needed to transform from a capitalist to socialist society. I instead look to Engels later in his life when he opened up and accepted a more gradualist view of socialism being possible.
    Well then I guess that made Marx wrong about Capitalism after all. BTW I hope that you didnt just stop with Engels, I mean hes been dead a while. I would think that you ought to be a bit more progressive than that. Would you be open to a more modern economic/social system etc or are you a conservative Socialist stuck on the old ways taught by dead men? In fact why even bother with Socialism since it has many faults ad is widely misunderstood? Wouldnt it be wiser to just start over with a new approach that is acceptable to more people rather than a system that so many people will never accept? In a small way that is what the Democratic Socialists have done but they still grasp onto the old ideas even though there is a large stigma attached to them. Which is one of the many reasons that I oppose Socialism in all of its forms, its because its a hols over of old world philosophies that are antiqued. I mean if I were to dream of the best solutions for societies woes I wouldnt box myself into a specific ideological arena that seems to only create conflict (how could it not since Socialism was built on conflict, in fact without conflict Socialism isnt necessary at all).

  8. #498
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    One must take into account that when people think of private property they think of personal property. Private property and personal property are not the same. Marx does not wish to get rid of personal property.
    SO then what about my personal property that I would like to give to my kids when i die?

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    One must take into account that when people think of private property they think of personal property. Private property and personal property are not the same. Marx does not wish to get rid of personal property.
    I'm aware, but what makes ownership of property necessary to make your way in life? As someone who doesn't currently own a home, I think there's a major distinction between things such as healthcare, food, etc., and property.
    Social democrat is no longer an accurate description of my views.

  10. #500
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by SocialDemocrat View Post
    I'm aware, but what makes ownership of property necessary to make your way in life? As someone who doesn't currently own a home, I think there's a major distinction between things such as healthcare, food, etc., and property.
    Well I own my home, and run a home business from this property. If I did not own this property I would spend the money that I do on it for the improvements that I need, if I had no guarantee of retaining the property through out my life or until I decide to sell it and move or give it to my kids or anyone that I want too. WHy do Socialists insist on telling people like myself that they are not morally allowed to own private property? Who died and made you guys the moral police? Seriously it is a honest question. So you see no necessary purpose for owning private property but I do, what gives you the right to dictate your opinions on me? Cant we just live in a diverse society where the people that want to own private property have that liberty and the people who dont want to own private property retain that liberty as well?

    BTW private property is one of the huge pitfalls that Marx made. Marx had to demoralize owning private property in order for his proposed society to work. Marx also had to demoralize other common concepts of society in order to make his plan work as well. Marx did not apply Occam's razor in his ramblings and tried to assert ridiculous impossible schemes instead of admitting his mistake and starting over. It is such mistakes that crippled Marxism from the beginning and is why as any Communist will tell you that there never has been REAL Communism. There never will be, its a dead ideology because of the huge mistakes with in it.

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