View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

Voters
94. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    38 40.43%
  • No

    56 59.57%
Page 29 of 56 FirstFirst ... 19272829303139 ... LastLast
Results 281 to 290 of 555

Thread: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  1. #281
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I said that the 13th amendment applies to citizens as well as governments. That's what I said. Not only that, but the 13th amendments applies to ANYONE in the United States.

    You want to insist that the 13th amendment does not apply to individuals. But there is a problem with your position. If the 13th amendment did not apply to individuals, someone could purchase a slave in a country where slavery was permitted, bring the slave to the United States, and claim that the slave was their property. The state of ownership is imperative to the condition of slavery. There is nothing in any federal statute that states that you cannot own another human being as property. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This is because the 13th amendment has said that slavery, the practice of owning another human being as property, simply does not exist. So the very minute that someone, anyone, a citizen or foreign national, brings a slave into the United States, that person is simply not a slave anymore. This is because the 13th amendment not only applies to governments, but to individuals as well. Therefore the Supreme Court has said:

    incorrect there is nothing in 13th amendment which can be applied to citizens.......only the creation of federal law can apply to citizens.

    citizens cannot be taken to court for a constitutional violation,...only a crime in the case of slavery



    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Again for emphasis, the 13th amendment is not a mere restriction on State laws, but is an absolute declaration that slavery simply does not exist in the United States. Therefore NO ONE, governments, citizens, or foreign nationals cannot claim human beings as properties. Property ownership involves having proof of ownership that is acceptable to the local sovereign. In the United States, no one can provide such proof of ownership. Therefore no one can be brought to trial on the accusation that they own slaves.
    people can be bought to trial, under the definition of the code...if they commit such an infraction of the law, which is criminal law.....



    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The 13th amendment applies to individuals and government. And the 16th amendment gives Congress power over a type of property, namely income.

    wrong the 13 and the 16th do not mention people

    Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    Section 2.
    Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


    the Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It does not. And you have provided no examples that demonstrate this. What you have done is taken the use of the word slavery in chapter and subsection titles and conflated that with a definition of slavery. It's absurd.
    the code defines what slavery is.


    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There is no crime of slavery in United States code. This is because no one can claim a slave to be property in the United States because of the 13th amendment.
    the code defines what slavery is.


    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No, that is the title of a chapter. There is no attempt to define slavery or prescribe punishment for it in any of the sections of that chapter.
    the code defines what slavery is.


    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Forced labor is not the same as slavery. Slavery denotes an owner and property, the slave. Forced labor does not necessarily denote ownership. Your position that forced labor is defined as slavery is absurd.
    federal statutes

    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

     1581. Peonage; obstructing enforcement
     1582. Vessels for slave trade
     1583. Enticement into slavery
     1584. Sale into involuntary servitude
     1585. Seizure, detention, transportation or sale of slaves
     1586. Service on vessels in slave trade
     1587. Possession of slaves aboard vessel
     1588. Transportation of slaves from United States
     1589. Forced labor
     1590. Trafficking with respect to peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
     1591. Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion
     1592. Unlawful conduct with respect to documents in furtherance of trafficking, peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
     1593. Mandatory restitution
     1593A. Benefitting financially from peonage, slavery, and trafficking in persons
     1594. General provisions
     1595. Civil remedy
     1596. Additional jurisdiction in certain trafficking offenses
     1597. Unlawful conduct with respect to immigration documents
    1588. Transportation of slaves from United States
    1589.Forced labor
    1590.Trafficking with Respect to Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor
    1591.Sex Trafficking of Children or by Force, Fraud, or Coercion
    1592.Unlawful Conduct with Respect to Documents in Furtherance of Trafficking, Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor

    the code defines what would be ...peonage-- slavery-- human trafficking.

  2. #282
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:24 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,689

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I prefer Groucho Marx when it comes to government predictions. We're headed for Duck Soup, the lot of us.
    Hail Hail Freedonia!
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  3. #283
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    incorrect there is nothing in 13th amendment which can be applied to citizens.......only the creation of federal law can apply to citizens.
    Wrong! The 13th amendment does apply to citizens and any other person that is in the United States. As a result of the 13th amendment, no one can claim another person to be their property. NO ONE.

  4. #284
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Wrong! The 13th amendment does apply to citizens and any other person that is in the United States. As a result of the 13th amendment, no one can claim another person to be their property. NO ONE.
    sorry no , federal law .u.s.code. makes it possible for government take action against those who would violate the code concerning slavery, constitutional law cannot be used on the citizen, because it is just a general statement there is no power behind it when it comes to citizens, to jail them and build a case on.

  5. #285
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    It depends on what you define as "capitalism." Modern definitions of capitalism greatly differ from the marxist definition of capitalism. It has gotten to the point in which if you were to walk up to the average political activist and call yourself a "free market anti-capitalist" they'd look at you like you're smoking something. I think people have forgotten that capitalism is a specific structure of an inevitable market, rather than just a market itself. You can have markets without capitalism.
    Fair enough. For the sake of this discussion, would you please elaborate on exactly what these "modern" definitions are, and who exactly has put forward those definitions, and how they differ, in your view from Marx's definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    As far as the specific OP question, if you preface the question with "Was Karl Marx Right About..." 9 times out of 10 you are going to get the answer no from me.
    Nine times out of ten? Please fill us in on the details.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    He's not the evil big government stalinist that the right makes him out to be, but he's frankly an economic illiterate with no grip on reality.
    Marx was anything but an economic illiterate. But if you really feel that's the case, please demonstrate how this is so.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    We can live in the sunshine and rainbows dream universe where everybody is equal to everybody and nobody ever suffers, but that will never happen. This is where marxists, communists, socialists, left-libertarians, etc. fall off their rocker. On the social issues, they're spot on. Economically? They have quite a bit of reading to do. Utopia is great to lay back in your bed and think about, but we have to be pragmatic in our approach and frankly the closest we will ever get to that utopia ultimately has to be achieved through individualism and freedom of the individual.
    There is no individual freedom under capitalism. There is only the illusion of such. Because what inevitably happens is that people become enslaved to the consumption of corporate commodities, which, combined with the practice of fractional reserve banking makes them debt slaves as well. The small bit of freedom under such a system is held in the hands of the wealthy only, because it can only result in the flow of income upwards to the wealthy. Regardless of whether it is corporate capitalism or free market capitalism this is always the case because capitalists are always motivated to maximize profits which results in their efforts to minimize wages. Thus there is always downward pressure on wages under capitalism which results in the upwards flow of wealth to the capitalist, which in turn leads to abnormal wealth distributions and huge income inequality. And their is nothing to prevent this under such a system.

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Collectivism, regardless if it is centralized or decentralized, never works. Never has, never will. It inevitably leads to suffering and loss of freedom.
    Capitalism has never worked, never will, and always results in the increase of human suffering.

  6. #286
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry no , federal law .u.s.code. makes it possible for government take action against those who would violate the code concerning slavery, constitutional law cannot be used on the citizen, because it is just a general statement there is no power behind it when it comes to citizens, to jail them and build a case on.
    No it is so. No one in the United States can claim that a human being is their property as a result of the 13th amendment. NO ONE. It's absurd to state otherwise.

  7. #287
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    No it is so. No one in the United States can claim that a human being is their property as a result of the 13th amendment. NO ONE. It's absurd to state otherwise.
    did not say that....i said that you cannot arrest and charge anyone using the 13th amendment meaning you cannot apply it to citizens

    you can only use criminal law for that, ...because the 13th is a general statement.

    it takes federal law to define slavery...which congress is authorized to create from the 13th....its 2nd clause.

  8. #288
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    did not say that....i said that you cannot arrest and charge anyone using the 13th amendment meaning you cannot apply it to citizens

    you can only use criminal law for that, ...because the 13th is a general statement.

    it takes federal law to define slavery...which congress is authorized to create from the 13th....its 2nd clause.
    The point is that the 13th amendment applies to not only citizens, but EVERYONE in the US. Because of the 13th amendment, NO ONE CAN CLAIM ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TO BE HIS PROPERTY. Therefore the 13th amendment applies to all.

  9. #289
    Mixed Government advocate
    Master PO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    93,000,000 miles from Earth where its very Hot
    Last Seen
    11-30-17 @ 01:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    31,331

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The point is that the 13th amendment applies to not only citizens, but EVERYONE in the US. Because of the 13th amendment, NO ONE CAN CLAIM ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TO BE HIS PROPERTY. Therefore the 13th amendment applies to all.
    sorry no.... the constitution does not apply to people.......no where does it grant of give the people anything....no where does it state government now has authority over the people or states.

    the 13th amendment, states there shall be no slavery in the u.s. and congress by legislative authority has the power, to enforce that.

  10. #290
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 09:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry no.... the constitution does not apply to people.......no where does it grant of give the people anything....no where does it state government now has authority over the people or states.

    the 13th amendment, states there shall be no slavery in the u.s. and congress by legislative authority has the power, to enforce that.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

    NO ONE CAN CLAIM ANOTHER PERSON TO BE HIS PROPERTY IN THE UNITED STATES. NO ONE!!!! This is directly because of the 13th amendment.

    You want to put forward the absurd notion that US code defines slavery as forced labor. But THE FACT IS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE SOMEONE'S PROPERTY TO BE FORCED TO DO LABOR FOR THEM. Not only that, but what if the slave was not being forced to do the labor? What if the slave wanted to be a slave and be someone's property? IN THAT CASE THE LABOR IS NOT FORCED AT ALL, BUT STILL BECAUSE THE 13TH AMENDMENT APPLIES TO EVERYONE, NO ONE CAN CLAIM SOMEONE ELSE TO BE HIS PROPERTY. So even if someone wanted to be the slave of another person, thus resulting in an absence of forced labor, it is not possible because the 13th amendment applies to all, individuals included. And if you say that's absurd because no one would want to be a slave, there were actually a few blacks who were interviewed after the Civil War who stated that they preferred slavery.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 05-20-14 at 09:43 PM.

Page 29 of 56 FirstFirst ... 19272829303139 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •