View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

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Thread: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  1. #271
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That is the title of an article. Here's what the brothers where technically charged with

    http://www.justice.gov/usao/pae/News...indictment.pdf

    1. 18 U.S.C. 1962(d) (conspiracy to participate in a racketeering enterprise -1 count)
    2. 18 U.S.C. 1951 (interference with commerce by threats of violence - 3 counts)

    So they were charged with one count of Conspiracy to Commit Racketeering, and three counts of Extortion

    Here's the law

    Please note there is NO CHARGE OF ENSLAVEMENT BECAUSE YOU CANNOT TECHNICALLY MAKE A PERSON A SLAVE IN THE UNITED STATES.

    You need to read carefully. The subject of the sentence, i.e. what is being described, is LABOR TRAFFICKING. The term slavery in the sentence is used to describe THE CRIME OF LABOR TRAFFICKING. Yes you can be charged with the crime of labor trafficking. It happens all the time. BUT NOWHERE WILL YOU SEE THE CRIME OF ENSLAVEMENT BECAUSE THE 13TH AMENDMENT SAYS THAT SLAVERY DOES NOT EXIST IN THE UNITED STATES. That is what the Supreme Court meant when it said the 13th amendment was self executing and not in need of ancillary legislation

    The Supreme Court said, in no ambiguous terms, that there was NO DOUBT that the 13th amendment was SELF EXECUTING AND NEEDED NO ANCILLARY LEGISLATION. Therefore, you do not see a statute that describes the crime of slavery.

    the Constitution creates the federal government delegates them few powers, and creates federalism a separation of powers between the federal government and state governments, the federal government cannot create federal laws, which do not pertain to its constitutional powers granted to it by the constitution, it creates no relationship between the federal government and the people.

    the 13th amendment to the constitution ,constitutional law, only applies to governments , BUT congress by appropriate legislation., CAN MAKE FEDERAL LAWS , making slavery a crime for citizens using federal statutes, even setting guidelines for the punishment for the crime.


    federal statutes

    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

     1581. Peonage; obstructing enforcement
     1582. Vessels for slave trade
     1583. Enticement into slavery
     1584. Sale into involuntary servitude
     1585. Seizure, detention, transportation or sale of slaves
     1586. Service on vessels in slave trade
     1587. Possession of slaves aboard vessel
     1588. Transportation of slaves from United States
     1589. Forced labor
     1590. Trafficking with respect to peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
     1591. Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion
     1592. Unlawful conduct with respect to documents in furtherance of trafficking, peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
     1593. Mandatory restitution
     1593A. Benefitting financially from peonage, slavery, and trafficking in persons
     1594. General provisions
     1595. Civil remedy
     1596. Additional jurisdiction in certain trafficking offenses
     1597. Unlawful conduct with respect to immigration documents
    1588. Transportation of slaves from United States

    1589. Forced labor-- Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--

    (1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

    (2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

    (3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.


    1590.Trafficking with Respect to Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor
    1591.Sex Trafficking of Children or by Force, Fraud, or Coercion
    1592.Unlawful Conduct with Respect to Documents in Furtherance of Trafficking, Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There is no restriction in the 13th amendment to government. Therefore there are no federal or state statutes that ban slavery, because an absolute declaration was made in the 13th amendment.
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    You are the one who does not understand the law. The 13th amendment applies to individuals as well as governments. Even the Supreme Court has stated such.
    AMENDMENT XIII

    Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.
    Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.
    Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
    Section 2.
    Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

    if a government were to sanction slavery it would be a constitutional violation, because governments cannot be sent to jail using federal code, but congress by appropriate legislation created federal code, for crimes of slavery to apply to citizens.

    constitutional law applies to government, not the people, federal laws apply to people.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    You tell me, what is the federal statute that specifically sets a punishment for slavery? Answer there is none, because according to the constitution there is no such thing as slavery in the United States.
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    January 2009 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2007-2008, showing that authorities investigated over 1200 incidents of human trafficking, and confirmed the incident in over 100 cases in the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There is no federal statute that sets a punishment for slavery. Why? Because the 13th amendment is an absolute declaration that slavery does not exist in the United States. Period. There is no need of a federal statute to punish the crime of slavery because slavery simply does not exist. It applies to governments as well as individuals.
    The relevant Supreme Court decision on the matter
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 1589--(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Human trafficking is technically NOT slavery. Show me a federal statute or Supreme Court ruling that states that human trafficking is slavery. No one is tried for the crime of slavery, because slavery does not exist in the United States.
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I'm not off subject, because the point is that the 13th amendment applies not only to governments, but individuals as well. Therefore the Supreme Court has said
    the 13th amendment is constitutional law...constitutional law does not apply to citizens, congress makes federal laws which deal with citizens.

    Constitutional law


    article 1 section 8

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

    article 3 section 3

    The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

    when a citizen has been found to have : counterfeited- committed piracy- committed treason, he will be tried under federal law, not constitutional law.

    constitutional powers like these are general powers, meaning they are not detailed powers, ...so congress makes federal laws to set the specifications to the crimes of counterfeiting, piracy, and treason.

  3. #273
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Wrong. That is not what is being done. Nor would it be detrimental.
    You are just making false claims that come from your ridiculous ideology.
    Let's say a man holds the title to a site. The site is empty with little-to-no natural resources or improvements (such as a building). As a result, its market value is very low. Now let's say the community builds a school right next to his site. What happens to the value of that land? The value increases and the titleholder becomes a much wealthier man without doing an ounce of work. This has been done every day on a grand scale for centuries.

    This explains how the siteowner profits off the productivity of the community. So does this.

    So the siteowner captures the wealth of the community through rent... is this necessarily a bad thing? Economist Fred Foldvary explains why it is bad:

    Land speculation has different effects from speculation in stocks or commodities. That's because land is local, land is fixed in supply, and land rent gets puffed up by government spending. The fixed supply implies that greater demand just raises the price, unlike commodities that can be produced or imported. Currencies, shares of stock, and commodities have global markets, but land has local markets, so a high local price cannot be arbitraged: one cannot move low-price land into high-priced areas. Finally, unlike commodities, government public works increase the rent, so speculators may actively influence government to provide works landowners don't pay for.

    Land speculation hurts wages by taking up land locally, pushing labor to less productive areas. By holding land waiting for the price to rise, speculators decrease the local productivity. The wage level is determined at the least productive land in use, as all the additional product of the better lands goes to rent. The main reason why this market-hurting speculation takes place is because the landowners get territorial benefits without having to pay for them.

    Foldvary: Speculation versus Investment

    I will respond to the rest soon.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Marx was correct. The US would have long been past the point economically that it is now in if it were not for the New Deal and unionization. However globalization has lead to a loophole in that system which has in turn led to CEO's making a ratio of 350:1 compared to workers. If the US wants to remain strong, it must adjust this deficiency and lower the gap between employees and corporate execs. Now, I am not advocating making everyone equal within a company. Those that work harder should be rewarded and of course the higher the position the higher the pay. Yet, I do not feel it is justifiable, nor sustainable for execs to earn $350 to every $1 a worker is making.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Bs! As it is they pay the taxes on it full value.
    False. While some do pay the equivalent (or more) of the full value thanks to two-tiered property taxes, not everyone pays the full value. You really think the owner of the empty lot next to the skyscraper is paying its full value in tax?

    But as it should be, all they should pay is a sales tax.
    Sales tax is bad for the local economy.


    Bs! you are not paying taxes on certain things to "make up for".
    That is another absurd claim.
    It is true. The wealth generated through our infrastructure is crystallized and privatized to benefit a few individuals when it should be benefiting the community as a whole. This results in greater wealth disparity which forces politicians to expand on assistance programs and raise our taxes.

    What you said is irrelevant to what you quoted.
    Paying taxes on something that is your property, you know, that **** you already paid taxes on, is counter ownership.
    Who made the Earth? Air? Space? Natural resources? Nobody. Legally it can be owned, sure, but not naturally the same way we own the house we built. I believe as Thomas Paine believed: it is nevertheless true that it is value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property.
    WealthandWant: Thomas Paine

    As already stated.
    They are profiting. That is a good thing. They also risk losing and do lose.
    That should not be discouraged.
    A thief also profits when he steals from the house he burglarizes. Profit in itself is not always good.

    And as I stated before, there is little risk to land speculation (unless you are being dumb about it).

    Dan Kildee of Community Progress states: Today, there is no "downside" or cost to large-scale speculation. In most locales -- and especially in very depressed housing markets -- so-called "investors" can purchase property for as little as a few hundred dollars and sell this property to a third party for hundreds or thousands of dollars more, in a sale that is recorded as legitimate by the relevant county -- without any requirement that the seller/speculator pay past due taxes or maintained the property to even minimum standards.

    Land markets are very predictable (economists like Mason Gaffney have it down to a science) and speculators almost always come out on top.

    If you have evidence to the contrary I'd like to see it.
    Last edited by Geoist; 05-20-14 at 12:57 PM.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  6. #276
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Wrong. It shows no such thing as stated.
    It does not show any out of control military spending.
    That is nothing more than your false claim.
    All it showed was our spending as compared to others.
    I was using facts to support my opinion. Whether you think spending more than the next ten top military nations is not a sign that it is out of control, that is your prerogative. Stop acting like your opinions are facts.


    Wrong. I did indeed answer you question. You even quoted it.
    As much as we need to project our power and support our interests and continue research and development so we can keep it that way for a good long time.
    Lol, that is not an answer. I'm looking for a $ amount. Even if one believed we need to "project our power" over others, opinions on how much spending that requires would vary widely.

    All you do is rant about your ideology as if it is correct compared to our current form of capitalism.
    And frankly, you and it, are just wrong. Period.
    Wow, crow calling the raven black.

    Whatever you say buddy.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  7. #277
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the Constitution creates the federal government delegates them few powers, and creates federalism a separation of powers between the federal government and state governments, the federal government cannot create federal laws, which do not pertain to its constitutional powers granted to it by the constitution, it creates no relationship between the federal government and the people.

    the 13th amendment to the constitution ,constitutional law, only applies to governments , BUT congress by appropriate legislation., CAN MAKE FEDERAL LAWS , making slavery a crime for citizens using federal statutes, even setting guidelines for the punishment for the crime.
    There is no federal statue that states specifically that slavery is a crime. This is because of the 13th amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    federal statutes

    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

     1581. Peonage; obstructing enforcement
     1582. Vessels for slave trade
     1583. Enticement into slavery
     1584. Sale into involuntary servitude
     1585. Seizure, detention, transportation or sale of slaves
     1586. Service on vessels in slave trade
     1587. Possession of slaves aboard vessel
     1588. Transportation of slaves from United States
     1589. Forced labor
     1590. Trafficking with respect to peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
     1591. Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion
     1592. Unlawful conduct with respect to documents in furtherance of trafficking, peonage, slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor
     1593. Mandatory restitution
     1593A. Benefitting financially from peonage, slavery, and trafficking in persons
     1594. General provisions
     1595. Civil remedy
     1596. Additional jurisdiction in certain trafficking offenses
     1597. Unlawful conduct with respect to immigration documents
    1588. Transportation of slaves from United States


    1590.Trafficking with Respect to Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor
    1591.Sex Trafficking of Children or by Force, Fraud, or Coercion
    1592.Unlawful Conduct with Respect to Documents in Furtherance of Trafficking, Peonage, Slavery, Involuntary Servitude, or Forced Labor
    All you have done here is list a group of federal statutes, SOME of which have slavery in the title. ALTHOUGH SLAVERY IS IN THE TITLE BECAUSE THEY TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF SLAVERY, IN NONE OF THE STATUES IS SLAVERY SPECIFICALLY STATED TO BE A CRIME. This is because of the 13th amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    1589. Forced labor-- Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--

    (1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

    (2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

    (3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.
    Forced labor is not the same as slavery. You don't have to be someone's property to be engaged in forced labor.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS
    That is the title because it talks about slavery. However no statute in that chapter specifically makes slavery a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    AMENDMENT XIII

    Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865.
    Note: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was superseded by the 13th amendment.
    Section 1.
    Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
    Section 2.
    Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

    if a government were to sanction slavery it would be a constitutional violation, because governments cannot be sent to jail using federal code, but congress by appropriate legislation created federal code, for crimes of slavery to apply to citizens.

    constitutional law applies to government, not the people, federal laws apply to people.
    The 13th amendment is an absolute declaration that applies to people. There are no laws that specifically ban slavery or prescribe a punishment for it. Again, the decision of the Supreme Court

    the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    January 2009 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2007-2008, showing that authorities investigated over 1200 incidents of human trafficking, and confirmed the incident in over 100 cases in the United States
    Again, that is in the title because that chapter talks about, among other things, the subject of slavery. However, again, there is no statute that specifically states that slavery is a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 1589--(3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.
    That is not for the crime of slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS
    That is the title of the chapter. There is no statute that states specifically that slavery is a crime.


    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    the 13th amendment is constitutional law...constitutional law does not apply to citizens, congress makes federal laws which deal with citizens.

    Constitutional law

    article 1 section 8

    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

    article 3 section 3

    The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

    when a citizen has been found to have : counterfeited- committed piracy- committed treason, he will be tried under federal law, not constitutional law.

    constitutional powers like these are general powers, meaning they are not detailed powers, ...so congress makes federal laws to set the specifications to the crimes of counterfeiting, piracy, and treason.
    And again, there is no federal statute that specifically states that slavery is a crime. This is because the 13th amendment states that slavery does not exist in the US. Therefore no one can make another human property. And that is applicable not only to governments but to individuals as well. Again, the Supreme Court

    the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.
    Governments cannot make laws that make slavery legal, and neither can governments or individuals engage in the practice of slavery. It is an absolute declaration. As a result of this, no one can claim that another human being is his property. Therefore, there are no statutes that make slavery a crime, because no one can claim another human being is their property.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    you stated constitutional law applied to citizens.. false......... only federal laws by the federal government applies to citizens...

    citizens cannot be brought into federal courts of charges of constitutional violations.......if that were so then the appeals process would give the USSC power to sentence a citizen.

    both amendments 13th and 16th authorize Congress the power to write federal legislation, on slavery and income taxes.

    federal code, defines the description of what constitutes slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There is no federal statue that states specifically that slavery is a crime. This is because of the 13th amendment.
    legislation from congress, as the 13th states.......[appropriate legislation]........ federal law makes it a crime by ..........defined by the code.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    All you have done here is list a group of federal statutes, SOME of which have slavery in the title. ALTHOUGH SLAVERY IS IN THE TITLE BECAUSE THEY TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF SLAVERY, IN NONE OF THE STATUES IS SLAVERY SPECIFICALLY STATED TO BE A CRIME. This is because of the 13th amendment.
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    U.S. Code defines what slavery is...the specifics listed in the code are considered either peonage /slavery/ and trafficking, it also states a guideline of what the punishment is for the crime of slavery as depicted by the code.

    things specified in the code fall under ---PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    1589. Forced labor-- Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--

    (1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

    (2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

    (3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.


    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Forced labor is not the same as slavery. You don't have to be someone's property to be engaged in forced labor.
    if you force someone to labor by you, then as defined by u.s. code it is slavery and a crime........

    U.S.CODE ....DEFINES WHAT SLAVERY IS.........you do not.........Forced labor is defined as slavery under the title of the code.
    Last edited by Master PO; 05-20-14 at 05:42 PM.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    you stated constitutional law applied to citizens.. false......... only federal laws by the federal government applies to citizens...

    citizens cannot be brought into federal courts of charges of constitutional violations.......if that were so then the appeals process would give the USSC power to sentence a citizen.
    I said that the 13th amendment applies to citizens as well as governments. That's what I said. Not only that, but the 13th amendments applies to ANYONE in the United States.

    You want to insist that the 13th amendment does not apply to individuals. But there is a problem with your position. If the 13th amendment did not apply to individuals, someone could purchase a slave in a country where slavery was permitted, bring the slave to the United States, and claim that the slave was their property. The state of ownership is imperative to the condition of slavery. There is nothing in any federal statute that states that you cannot own another human being as property. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. This is because the 13th amendment has said that slavery, the practice of owning another human being as property, simply does not exist. So the very minute that someone, anyone, a citizen or foreign national, brings a slave into the United States, that person is simply not a slave anymore. This is because the 13th amendment not only applies to governments, but to individuals as well. Therefore the Supreme Court has said:

    the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.
    Again for emphasis, the 13th amendment is not a mere restriction on State laws, but is an absolute declaration that slavery simply does not exist in the United States. Therefore NO ONE, governments, citizens, or foreign nationals cannot claim human beings as property. Property ownership involves having proof of ownership that is acceptable to the local sovereign. In the United States, no one can provide such proof of ownership. Therefore no one can be brought to trial on the accusation that they own slaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    both amendments 13th and 16th authorize Congress the power to write federal legislation, on slavery and income taxes.
    The 13th amendment applies to individuals and government. And the 16th amendment gives Congress power over a type of property, namely income.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    federal code, defines the description of what constitutes slavery
    It does not. And you have provided no examples that demonstrate this. What you have done is taken the use of the word slavery in chapter and subsection titles and conflated that with a definition of slavery. It's absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    legislation from congress, as the 13th states.......[appropriate legislation]........ federal law makes it a crime by ..........defined by the code.
    There is no crime of slavery in United States code. This is because no one can claim a slave to be property in the United States because of the 13th amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    U.S. Code defines what slavery is...the specifics listed in the code are considered either peonage /slavery/ and trafficking, it also states a guideline of what the punishment is for the crime of slavery as depicted by the code.

    things specified in the code fall under ---PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS
    No, that is the title of a chapter. There is no attempt to define slavery or prescribe punishment for it in any of the sections of that chapter.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    1589. Forced labor-- Whoever knowingly provides or obtains the labor or services of a person--

    (1) by threats of serious harm to, or physical restraint against, that person or another person;

    (2) by means of any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause the person to believe that, if the person did not perform such labor or services, that person or another person would suffer serious harm or physical restraint; or

    (3) by means of the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process,shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If death results from the violation of this section, or if the violation includes kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or the attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, the defendant shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.

    if you force someone to labor by you, then as defined by u.s. code it is slavery and a crime........

    U.S.CODE ....DEFINES WHAT SLAVERY IS.........you do not.........Forced labor is defined as slavery under the title of the code.
    Forced labor is not the same as slavery. Slavery denotes an owner and property, the slave. Forced labor does not necessarily denote ownership. Your position that forced labor is defined as slavery is absurd.

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