View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

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Thread: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  1. #261
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    you seem to be off the subject, trying to save face.

    a person cannot violate the constitution, they can only commit crimes.

    government commits constitutional violations..
    I'm not off subject, because the point is that the 13th amendment applies not only to governments, but individuals as well. Therefore the Supreme Court has said

    This amendment, as well as the Fourteenth, is undoubtedly self-executing, without any ancillary legislation, so far as its terms are applicable to any existing state of circumstances. By its own unaided force and effect, it abolished slavery and established universal freedom.
    ..............
    the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I'm not off subject, because the point is that the 13th amendment applies not only to governments, but individuals as well. Therefore the Supreme Court has said
    no... crime applys to the people ,not constitutional aw

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    no... crime applys to the people ,not constitutional aw
    There is no crime called slavery because slavery does not exist because of the 13th amendment. No one has been brought to trial on the accusation that they made someone a slave, because you simply cannot do so in the United States. The 13th Amendment is a absolute declaration that applies to government and individuals in the United States, and the Supreme Court has confirmed that view

    the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 05-19-14 at 10:26 PM.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    There is no crime called slavery because slavery does not exist because of the 13th amendment. No one has been brought to trial on the accusation that they made someone a slave, because you simply cannot do so in the United States. The 13th Amendment is a absolute declaration that applies to government and individuals in the United States, and the Supreme Court has confirmed that view
    January 2009 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2007-2008, showing that authorities investigated over 1200 incidents of human trafficking, and confirmed the incident in over 100 cases in the United States.<---------------


    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cshti08.pdf

    again slavery is a crime.....it is not a constitutional violation by a citizen as you claimed from the start,..stop deflecting.


    Peonage, Slavery, and Trafficking in Persons, 18 U.S.C. 1581 et seq., making slavery, the slave trade, and related activities a crime.<---------------

    January 2009 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2007-2008, showing that authorities investigated over 1200 incidents of human trafficking, and confirmed the incident in over 100 cases in the United States.<---------------



    U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 77
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...t-I/chapter-77
    Last edited by Master PO; 05-19-14 at 11:10 PM.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Ukrainian brothers charged with slave labor in Philadelphia

    Ukrainian brothers charged with slave labor in Philadelphia - Philly.com


    Labor trafficking is the recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, or obtaining of a person for labor or services, through the use of force, fraud, or coercion for the purposes of subjection to involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery, (22 USC 7102).

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    It depends on what you define as "capitalism." Modern definitions of capitalism greatly differ from the marxist definition of capitalism. It has gotten to the point in which if you were to walk up to the average political activist and call yourself a "free market anti-capitalist" they'd look at you like you're smoking something. I think people have forgotten that capitalism is a specific structure of an inevitable market, rather than just a market itself. You can have markets without capitalism.

    As far as the specific OP question, if you preface the question with "Was Karl Marx Right About..." 9 times out of 10 you are going to get the answer no from me. He's not the evil big government stalinist that the right makes him out to be, but he's frankly an economic illiterate with no grip on reality. We can live in the sunshine and rainbows dream universe where everybody is equal to everybody and nobody ever suffers, but that will never happen. This is where marxists, communists, socialists, left-libertarians, etc. fall off their rocker. On the social issues, they're spot on. Economically? They have quite a bit of reading to do. Utopia is great to lay back in your bed and think about, but we have to be pragmatic in our approach and frankly the closest we will ever get to that utopia ultimately has to be achieved through individualism and freedom of the individual. Collectivism, regardless if it is centralized or decentralized, never works. Never has, never will. It inevitably leads to suffering and loss of freedom.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    January 2009 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2007-2008, showing that authorities investigated over 1200 incidents of human trafficking, and confirmed the incident in over 100 cases in the United States.<---------------


    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cshti08.pdf

    again slavery is a crime.....it is not a constitutional violation by a citizen as you claimed from the start,..stop deflecting.


    Peonage, Slavery, and Trafficking in Persons, 18 U.S.C. 1581 et seq., making slavery, the slave trade, and related activities a crime.<---------------

    January 2009 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2007-2008, showing that authorities investigated over 1200 incidents of human trafficking, and confirmed the incident in over 100 cases in the United States.<---------------



    U.S. Code Title 18 Part I Chapter 77
    18 U.S. Code Chapter 77 - PEONAGE, SLAVERY, AND TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...t-I/chapter-77
    You have already posted this contention. And again, no one has been charged with enslaving another individual in the US since the 13th amendment because you would have to prove that someone made a person a slave, which, technically speaking, cannot be done because slavery does not exist in the United States.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    You have already posted this contention. And again, no one has been charged with enslaving another individual in the US since the 13th amendment because you would have to prove that someone made a person a slave, which, technically speaking, cannot be done because slavery does not exist in the United States.
    you should be embarrassed by now, claiming citizens violate constitutional law , and then saying the 13th and 14th are declarations....which makes slavery not possible in america....

    you dig a hole so deep for yourself....

    why cant you just have admitted you were wrong and moved on...no you had to be pushing your nonsense

  9. #269
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Ukrainian brothers charged with slave labor in Philadelphia

    Ukrainian brothers charged with slave labor in Philadelphia - Philly.com
    That is the title of an article. Here's what the brothers where technically charged with

    http://www.justice.gov/usao/pae/News...indictment.pdf

    1. 18 U.S.C. 1962(d) (conspiracy to participate in a racketeering enterprise -1 count)
    2. 18 U.S.C. 1951 (interference with commerce by threats of violence - 3 counts)

    So they were charged with one count of Conspiracy to Commit Racketeering, and three counts of Extortion

    Here's the law

    18 U.S.C. 1962
    (a) It shall be unlawful for any person who has received any income derived, directly or indirectly, from a pattern of racketeering activity or through collection of an unlawful debt in which such person has participated as a principal within the meaning of section 2, title 18, United States Code, to use or invest, directly or indirectly, any part of such income, or the proceeds of such income, in acquisition of any interest in, or the establishment or operation of, any enterprise which is engaged in, or the activities of which affect, interstate or foreign commerce. A purchase of securities on the open market for purposes of investment, and without the intention of controlling or participating in the control of the issuer, or of assisting another to do so, shall not be unlawful under this subsection if the securities of the issuer held by the purchaser, the members of his immediate family, and his or their accomplices in any pattern or racketeering activity or the collection of an unlawful debt after such purchase do not amount in the aggregate to one percent of the outstanding securities of any one class, and do not confer, either in law or in fact, the power to elect one or more directors of the issuer.
    (b) It shall be unlawful for any person through a pattern of racketeering activity or through collection of an unlawful debt to acquire or maintain, directly or indirectly, any interest in or control of any enterprise which is engaged in, or the activities of which affect, interstate or foreign commerce.
    (c) It shall be unlawful for any person employed by or associated with any enterprise engaged in, or the activities of which affect, interstate or foreign commerce, to conduct or participate, directly or indirectly, in the conduct of such enterprise’s affairs through a pattern of racketeering activity or collection of unlawful debt.
    (d) It shall be unlawful for any person to conspire to violate any of the provisions of subsection (a), (b), or (c) of this section.
    18 U.S.C. 1951
    (a) Whoever in any way or degree obstructs, delays, or affects commerce or the movement of any article or commodity in commerce, by robbery or extortion or attempts or conspires so to do, or commits or threatens physical violence to any person or property in furtherance of a plan or purpose to do anything in violation of this section shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
    (b) As used in this section—
    (1) The term “robbery” means the unlawful taking or obtaining of personal property from the person or in the presence of another, against his will, by means of actual or threatened force, or violence, or fear of injury, immediate or future, to his person or property, or property in his custody or possession, or the person or property of a relative or member of his family or of anyone in his company at the time of the taking or obtaining.
    (2) The term “extortion” means the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.
    (3) The term “commerce” means commerce within the District of Columbia, or any Territory or Possession of the United States; all commerce between any point in a State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia and any point outside thereof; all commerce between points within the same State through any place outside such State; and all other commerce over which the United States has jurisdiction.
    (c) This section shall not be construed to repeal, modify or affect section 17 ofTitle 15, sections 52, 101–115, 151–166 of Title 29 or sections 151–188 of Title 45.
    Please note there is NO CHARGE OF ENSLAVEMENT BECAUSE YOU CANNOT TECHNICALLY MAKE A PERSON A SLAVE IN THE UNITED STATES.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Labor trafficking is the recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, or obtaining of a person for labor or services, through the use of force, fraud, or coercion for the purposes of subjection to involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery, (22 USC 7102).
    You need to read carefully. The subject of the sentence, i.e. what is being described, is LABOR TRAFFICKING. The term slavery in the sentence is used to describe THE CRIME OF LABOR TRAFFICKING. Yes you can be charged with the crime of labor trafficking. It happens all the time. BUT NOWHERE WILL YOU SEE THE CRIME OF ENSLAVEMENT BECAUSE THE 13TH AMENDMENT SAYS THAT SLAVERY DOES NOT EXIST IN THE UNITED STATES. That is what the Supreme Court meant when it said the 13th amendment was self executing and not in need of ancillary legislation

    This amendment, ... is undoubtedly self-executing, without any ancillary legislation, so far as its terms are applicable to any existing state of circumstances. By its own unaided force and effect, it abolished slavery and established universal freedom.
    ..........
    the amendment is not a mere prohibition of State laws establishing or upholding slavery, but an absolute declaration that slavery or involuntary servitude shall not exist in any part of the United States.
    The Supreme Court said, in no ambiguous terms, that there was NO DOUBT that the 13th amendment was SELF EXECUTING AND NEEDED NO ANCILLARY LEGISLATION. Therefore, you do not see a statute that describes the crime of slavery.

  10. #270
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    you should be embarrassed by now, claiming citizens violate constitutional law , and then saying the 13th and 14th are declarations....which makes slavery not possible in america....

    you dig a hole so deep for yourself....

    why cant you just have admitted you were wrong and moved on...no you had to be pushing your nonsense
    This is stupid. You cannot produce a statute that describes the crime of slavery. It's just not there. You can blow all the smoke you want, and you may confuse some people, but there is no statute that describes the crime of enslavement.

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