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Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 30 41.1%
  • No

    Votes: 43 58.9%

  • Total voters
    73
Are you sure that you even read it? I mean the name of it is Capital: A Critique of Political Economy Yet you tried to tell me that it is "the actual theory of Marxism". Marxism isnt just Volumes 2 and 3 of Capital: A Critique of Political Economy And just about every Marxist would agree that the Communist Manifesto is a great deal of it. Also there are other writings that make up the body of Marxism. I find it funny that you are trying to discredit the Communist Manifesto as just a "political pamphlet" just to avoid what is written in it because it proved my point. I guess that is why you didnt respond to my last post huh?

But then we can look at Capital if thats what you want. And it says the something about the so called natural course of Capitalism, that it leads to a society where money is the only thing that matters if left unchecked. Or are you going to deny that? But if Capital is the theory of Marxism then we can conclude that Marxism is nothing more than a critique of Capitalism. And I tend to agree with that point of view since every Marxist that I have met is obsessed with critiquing Capitalism and nothing much more than that. But that is what Marx wrote about generally.

The communist manifesto isn't an economic theory, its' a political pamphlet.

When People talk about marxism in the sense of economics they are generally talking about the Capital volumes.

I'm not tied to anything, because I dont' give a **** about the person of Marx, I care about ideas and theories and analysis and whether or not they are accurate.

Marxism IS basically just a critique of Capitalism, at least the Marxism I care about.
 
Are you sure that you even read it? I mean the name of it is Capital: A Critique of Political Economy Yet you tried to tell me that it is "the actual theory of Marxism". Marxism isnt just Volumes 2 and 3 of Capital: A Critique of Political Economy And just about every Marxist would agree that the Communist Manifesto is a great deal of it. Also there are other writings that make up the body of Marxism. I find it funny that you are trying to discredit the Communist Manifesto as just a "political pamphlet" just to avoid what is written in it because it proved my point. I guess that is why you didnt respond to my last post huh?

But then we can look at Capital if thats what you want. And it says the something about the so called natural course of Capitalism, that it leads to a society where money is the only thing that matters if left unchecked. Or are you going to deny that? But if Capital is the theory of Marxism then we can conclude that Marxism is nothing more than a critique of Capitalism. And I tend to agree with that point of view since every Marxist that I have met is obsessed with critiquing Capitalism and nothing much more than that. But that is what Marx wrote about generally.

The communist manifesto isn't an economic theory, its' a political pamphlet.

When People talk about marxism in the sense of economics they are generally talking about the Capital volumes.

I'm not tied to anything, because I dont' give a **** about the person of Marx, I care about ideas and theories and analysis and whether or not they are accurate.

Marxism IS basically just a critique of Capitalism, at least the Marxism I care about.
 
Are you sure that you even read it? I mean the name of it is Capital: A Critique of Political Economy Yet you tried to tell me that it is "the actual theory of Marxism". Marxism isnt just Volumes 2 and 3 of Capital: A Critique of Political Economy And just about every Marxist would agree that the Communist Manifesto is a great deal of it. Also there are other writings that make up the body of Marxism. I find it funny that you are trying to discredit the Communist Manifesto as just a "political pamphlet" just to avoid what is written in it because it proved my point. I guess that is why you didnt respond to my last post huh?

But then we can look at Capital if thats what you want. And it says the something about the so called natural course of Capitalism, that it leads to a society where money is the only thing that matters if left unchecked. Or are you going to deny that? But if Capital is the theory of Marxism then we can conclude that Marxism is nothing more than a critique of Capitalism. And I tend to agree with that point of view since every Marxist that I have met is obsessed with critiquing Capitalism and nothing much more than that. But that is what Marx wrote about generally.

The Marxism I care about is the actual theory Marx put forward on Capitalism in Capital vol. 1,2 & 3 .... I could give less of a **** about the communist manifesto or any other political pamphlet of the 1800s, since it has 0 bearing on the modern world though.

The critique of Capitalism, in Capital 1, 2 and 3 WAS right, the way capitalism tends toward more and more financialization, the tendancy for the rate of profit to fall, the various internal contradictions in capitalism such as labor cost cutting ending up hurting demand and so on ... all of these Things were right.

Marx did his critique USING classical economic theory of Adam Smith and Ricardo, so to critique Marx you have to critique Adam Smith or Ricardo unless you can actually show that the consequences don't follow, which they empirically do.
 
Re: Why fill your head with foolishness?

Marx was a fool. And Capital, all three volumes, were about capitalism.

Filling your mind with foolishness only helps when you recognize it for what it is. You are not alone. Today's Marxists tend to be the same kinds of people who have wished for him to be right in the past. For the most part they are the disaffected, the incapable and the wannabes who think they should have more to say about how to run the world and that they should get more than they got.

I know they were all about Capitalism ... which is why they are relevant and interesting .... since a lot of the stuff he wrote about capitalism turned out to be true.
 
The Marxism I care about is the actual theory Marx put forward on Capitalism in Capital vol. 1,2 & 3 .... I could give less of a **** about the communist manifesto or any other political pamphlet of the 1800s, since it has 0 bearing on the modern world though.

The critique of Capitalism, in Capital 1, 2 and 3 WAS right, the way capitalism tends toward more and more financialization, the tendancy for the rate of profit to fall, the various internal contradictions in capitalism such as labor cost cutting ending up hurting demand and so on ... all of these Things were right.

Marx did his critique USING classical economic theory of Adam Smith and Ricardo, so to critique Marx you have to critique Adam Smith or Ricardo unless you can actually show that the consequences don't follow, which they empirically do.

The communist manifesto isn't an economic theory, its' a political pamphlet.

When People talk about marxism in the sense of economics they are generally talking about the Capital volumes.

I'm not tied to anything, because I dont' give a **** about the person of Marx, I care about ideas and theories and analysis and whether or not they are accurate.

Marxism IS basically just a critique of Capitalism, at least the Marxism I care about.
Yea but its called MARXism because its all about Karl Marx's philosophies. Marx's philosophies were not limited to just critiquing Capitalism.

The question was if Marx was right about Capitalism. Marxisms extremist portrayal of Capitalism is no different than McCarthyism's extremist portrayal of Communism.

If Marx's predictions were correct why is it that all of his predictions are not evident in this modern world? The reason is that Marx was talking about unfettered/uncontrolled/unregulated crony Capitalism. He wasnt talking about a Capitalism that is controlled with a structure that eliminates the ability for people to exploit the system. His entire mounted around his assertion that democracy would die if Capitalism was the economic system of choice. Marxists assert the philosophies of Marx and espouse massive bias when viewing the state on the Union. Marxists will insist that there isnt any democracy in America so they can hold their left fist in the air and yell REVOLUTION. The idea is to scare the common citizen with all of their Marxist theories and so on. Some even try and claim that they are only concerned with the economic structure, as if no one can pick up the Communist Manifesto and read it. Marxism is Marxism whether one individual like yourself makes a claim that they are not involved in supporting the goals of Marxism. The point of Marxism is to reach a goal and that goal is to replace Capitalism with Socialism/Communism. That is what people mean when they talk about Marxism. Marxism isnt a benign study of economics, its a method to oust governments and replace them with the philosophies of Marx and the political structures that Marx and Engles designed.

BTW the word tends isnt definite its very subjective. Extrapolating historical trends can be misleading (citing data and making predictions). So Marx talked in a way that played on emotions and he exploited those emotions of the people most affected by corruption, the worker. It boils down to manipulation of personal pride. No one wants someone above them controlling them in any sort of way. So Marx used that psychology to attack the power structure of his world. In order for Marx's philosophies to be used he had to get rid of the competing cultures that would destroy any chance of his ideas coming to fruit. The best way of achieving that goal was to turn the citizens against their own governments and convince the worker that things will be grand under Socialism and later Communism. Good little manipulated sheep.

I cannot ignore the history and the methods of Marxism, its just too much bull**** that makes whatever Marx got right irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
 
Re: Why fill your head with foolishness?

I know they were all about Capitalism ... which is why they are relevant and interesting .... since a lot of the stuff he wrote about capitalism turned out to be true.
Nonsense.
 
1. Yea but its called MARXism because its all about Karl Marx's philosophies. Marx's philosophies were not limited to just critiquing Capitalism.

2. The question was if Marx was right about Capitalism. Marxisms extremist portrayal of Capitalism is no different than McCarthyism's extremist portrayal of Communism.

3. If Marx's predictions were correct why is it that all of his predictions are not evident in this modern world? The reason is that Marx was talking about unfettered/uncontrolled/unregulated crony Capitalism. He wasnt talking about a Capitalism that is controlled with a structure that eliminates the ability for people to exploit the system. His entire mounted around his assertion that democracy would die if Capitalism was the economic system of choice. Marxists assert the philosophies of Marx and espouse massive bias when viewing the state on the Union. Marxists will insist that there isnt any democracy in America so they can hold their left fist in the air and yell REVOLUTION. The idea is to scare the common citizen with all of their Marxist theories and so on. Some even try and claim that they are only concerned with the economic structure, as if no one can pick up the Communist Manifesto and read it. Marxism is Marxism whether one individual like yourself makes a claim that they are not involved in supporting the goals of Marxism. The point of Marxism is to reach a goal and that goal is to replace Capitalism with Socialism/Communism. That is what people mean when they talk about Marxism. Marxism isnt a benign study of economics, its a method to oust governments and replace them with the philosophies of Marx and the political structures that Marx and Engles designed.

BTW the word tends isnt definite its very subjective. Extrapolating historical trends can be misleading (citing data and making predictions). So Marx talked in a way that played on emotions and he exploited those emotions of the people most affected by corruption, the worker. It boils down to manipulation of personal pride. No one wants someone above them controlling them in any sort of way. So Marx used that psychology to attack the power structure of his world. In order for Marx's philosophies to be used he had to get rid of the competing cultures that would destroy any chance of his ideas coming to fruit. The best way of achieving that goal was to turn the citizens against their own governments and convince the worker that things will be grand under Socialism and later Communism. Good little manipulated sheep.

I cannot ignore the history and the methods of Marxism, its just too much bull**** that makes whatever Marx got right irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

1. Ok, but, I'm not tied to everything Marx wrote .... I'm tied to what I agree With and waht makes sense and what is relevant.

2. No it wasn't McCarthy didn't have a portrayal of communism, he didn't Write a book analysing it, he just called People communists .... Capitalism had an actual analytical critique of Capitalism, which didn't bash capitalism (he praised capitalism), but it pointed out internal contradictions in capitalism.

3. They are evident ....
The falling rate of profit has effected both agriculture and manufacturing.
Capitalism is almost entirely dependant on debt and basically run by Finance Capital
The gap between Rich and poor is widening With no end in sight
Capitalism requires compound grown every year to not og into crisis (of about 3%)
And so on and so on.

Marx was assuming a relatively unfettered capitalism.

As far as whether or not there is any Democracy in America, all you need to do is compare Public opinion and Public policy, and then the interests of major Corporations, and the buisiness class and Public policy to see that the US is basically a plutocracy.

The Marxism I CARE about is the study of economics, I want to change the system, but I don't think Marx's solutions (the small amount he wrote on potential solutions) are good ones at all, but that doesn't mean his analysis was wrong.
 
1. Ok, but, I'm not tied to everything Marx wrote .... I'm tied to what I agree With and waht makes sense and what is relevant.

2. No it wasn't McCarthy didn't have a portrayal of communism, he didn't Write a book analysing it, he just called People communists .... Capitalism had an actual analytical critique of Capitalism, which didn't bash capitalism (he praised capitalism), but it pointed out internal contradictions in capitalism.

3. They are evident ....
The falling rate of profit has effected both agriculture and manufacturing.
Capitalism is almost entirely dependant on debt and basically run by Finance Capital
The gap between Rich and poor is widening With no end in sight
Capitalism requires compound grown every year to not og into crisis (of about 3%)
And so on and so on.

Marx was assuming a relatively unfettered capitalism.

As far as whether or not there is any Democracy in America, all you need to do is compare Public opinion and Public policy, and then the interests of major Corporations, and the buisiness class and Public policy to see that the US is basically a plutocracy.

The Marxism I CARE about is the study of economics, I want to change the system, but I don't think Marx's solutions (the small amount he wrote on potential solutions) are good ones at all, but that doesn't mean his analysis was wrong.

The problem isnt Capitalism itself its corruption and miss management. Falling rates in profit, banking, wealth gaps etc, while all are big concerns cannot be attributed to Capitalism itself but to the people involved in running it and managing it. The only way that anyone can apply Marx's concepts to reality is by conforming to Marx's philosophies. An objective rational reading of Marx shows Marx to be a bit fanatic. He jumps from one assumption to the next without confirming anything. Ten assumptions down the road and Marx isnt even relevant anymore he is just babbling along in fantasy world. You can defend him if you want, or believe that he was right, but there is no need to try and force people to believe his crap.


Any system of any type can become corrupt. Marx was unable to differentiate between elements of a economical system and corruptible forces. Anti-Capitalists are extremely biased and will believe that its the system because they want it to be the system, so they attribute everything that has gone wrong to Captalism rather than where blame should be put, on the people who are ****ing everything up. The reason that Marx engaged in the Communist Manifesto was to offer a solution to the fake circumstances that he created. You cant analyse "Capital" without analyzing why it was written, its purpose. To do so is intellectually dishonest and falls short of rational analysis of the document.
 
I thought about something today. I was at a mall that has very high end stores that cater to wealthy clients. When I was starting my business I went to the office and talked to someone about leasing some space. That charge so much for rent, that it forms an enormous barrier of entry in the first place. But this is the thing that got me. The really good spots, they won't rent to you, even if you have enough money. You have to be one of the established designer brands before they will lease space to you. I was thinking, back when those people were establishing themselves, black folks were not even allowed in the game.

Hilarious. At least you're not assuming that it's because you're black.

We call that progress around here.
 
I thought about something today. I was at a mall that has very high end stores that cater to wealthy clients. When I was starting my business I went to the office and talked to someone about leasing some space. That charge so much for rent, that it forms an enormous barrier of entry in the first place. But this is the thing that got me. The really good spots, they won't rent to you, even if you have enough money. You have to be one of the established designer brands before they will lease space to you. I was thinking, back when those people were establishing themselves, black folks were not even allowed in the game.

You are assuming that all of the good places in Malls are leased to old companies. Malls are trendy places and property managers want clients that bring in the most people. Hell most malls around today are from the 80's at the oldest ,if they still exist and havent been completely replaced. More probable is that most malls are form the 90's and newer. I am pretty sure that "black folks" were in the game then.
 
The problem isnt Capitalism itself its corruption and miss management. Falling rates in profit, banking, wealth gaps etc, while all are big concerns cannot be attributed to Capitalism itself but to the people involved in running it and managing it. The only way that anyone can apply Marx's concepts to reality is by conforming to Marx's philosophies. An objective rational reading of Marx shows Marx to be a bit fanatic. He jumps from one assumption to the next without confirming anything. Ten assumptions down the road and Marx isnt even relevant anymore he is just babbling along in fantasy world. You can defend him if you want, or believe that he was right, but there is no need to try and force people to believe his crap.


Any system of any type can become corrupt. Marx was unable to differentiate between elements of a economical system and corruptible forces. Anti-Capitalists are extremely biased and will believe that its the system because they want it to be the system, so they attribute everything that has gone wrong to Captalism rather than where blame should be put, on the people who are ****ing everything up. The reason that Marx engaged in the Communist Manifesto was to offer a solution to the fake circumstances that he created. You cant analyse "Capital" without analyzing why it was written, its purpose. To do so is intellectually dishonest and falls short of rational analysis of the document.

So basically Marx JUST got Lucky because thankfully it's just all the People running capitalism making his predictions come to pass ... not the actual internal contradictions.

The only assumptions Marx uses is Calssical economics set up by People like Adam Smith and Ricardo.

Capital was written after the communist manifesto.

So far you haven't critiqued ANY of his actual analysis ....

And no, it's not the People, it's the system, different People have been running the system for the last 100 years, but the trends are the same, because the problems are internal to capitalism itself.
 
It's not that simple. There's usually no complete right or wrong with a person's philosophy or theories. There's some truth there, and some things not true.
 
So basically Marx JUST got Lucky because thankfully it's just all the People running capitalism making his predictions come to pass ... not the actual internal contradictions.

The only assumptions Marx uses is Calssical economics set up by People like Adam Smith and Ricardo.

Capital was written after the communist manifesto.

So far you haven't critiqued ANY of his actual analysis ....

And no, it's not the People, it's the system, different People have been running the system for the last 100 years, but the trends are the same, because the problems are internal to capitalism itself.
Marx did not write Capital then assert it has nothing to do with the Communist manifesto. Capital was written as an excuse for the Communist Manifesto. In order for Marx's pipe dream philosophies to have relevance, Marx had to figure out how to destroy what stood in his way. What stood in his was reality. And the only way to destroy reality was to redefine reality. So Marx set out on that task by redefining words and concepts and insisting that his philosophies were the only explanation and the only solution. In order to believe Marx's philosophies you have to suspend disbelief and have a great dislike for the world around you.

Marx preyed on the weak, the poor, the misfits just as any good cultists would. Marx asserted that either you were for his philosophies or you supported those that oppress you. So anything that he happened to be correct about does not matter anymore than what Hitler exploited to get his way.

SO you can keep telling me that Marx was right about Capitalism until you are blue in the face but it doesnt matter what Marx said or did. I am not a Adam Smith and Ricardo fan boy so you trying to use that angle fell flat on its face.

But no you are not going to sucker me into debating the crap philosophies of a babbling idiot.
 
Marx asserted that either you were for his philosophies or you supported those that oppress you. So anything that he happened to be correct about does not matter anymore than what Hitler exploited to get his way.
:lamo
:lamo
:lamo
 
1. Marx did not write Capital then assert it has nothing to do with the Communist manifesto. Capital was written as an excuse for the Communist Manifesto. In order for Marx's pipe dream philosophies to have relevance, Marx had to figure out how to destroy what stood in his way. What stood in his was reality. And the only way to destroy reality was to redefine reality. So Marx set out on that task by redefining words and concepts and insisting that his philosophies were the only explanation and the only solution. In order to believe Marx's philosophies you have to suspend disbelief and have a great dislike for the world around you.

2. Marx preyed on the weak, the poor, the misfits just as any good cultists would. Marx asserted that either you were for his philosophies or you supported those that oppress you. So anything that he happened to be correct about does not matter anymore than what Hitler exploited to get his way.

3. SO you can keep telling me that Marx was right about Capitalism until you are blue in the face but it doesnt matter what Marx said or did. I am not a Adam Smith and Ricardo fan boy so you trying to use that angle fell flat on its face.

But no you are not going to sucker me into debating the crap philosophies of a babbling idiot.

1. What did you ask Marx? This is Complete nonsense, the COmmunist Manifesto was written as a political pamphlet years before Kapital, Kapital was an economic volume describing how capitalism Works. You're just making **** up here, making up conspiracy theories, instead of ACTUALLY dealing With the analysis IN Capital ... something I never see neo-liberals actually do.

2. Preyed on them? What are you talking about? '

3. I can tell you that Marx was right, and I can give examples, can you give any examples on Capital or where he was wrong? (I can), or can you show that his overall thesis was wrong? So far you haven't shown anything other than making ad hominum attacks on him.
 
1. What did you ask Marx? This is Complete nonsense, the COmmunist Manifesto was written as a political pamphlet years before Kapital, Kapital was an economic volume describing how capitalism Works. You're just making **** up here, making up conspiracy theories, instead of ACTUALLY dealing With the analysis IN Capital ... something I never see neo-liberals actually do.
the Manifesto of the Communist party goes to great lengths to whine about Capitalism. Then later Marx writes a volume about Capitalism. Dude theres no conspiracy its ****ing in the history books. Dont deny the obvious dude it does nothing for your arguments. Everyone knows that Das Kapital is in support of Communism for ****s sake. Now you might have an argument if Das Kapital was written prior to the Manifesto.
2. Preyed on them? What are you talking about? '
Marx wanted everyone to accept his philosophies about society. The best population to indoctrinate are the ones that are suffering at the hands of the rich and powerful. So Marx created a philosophy that catered to the part of society that he believed through his writings would rise up and end all that he despised. It is classic social manipulation. Much like rallying a population behind patriotism or religion. Which is something that Marx talked about and knew well. It must of pained him to need to tell the world that religion is a opiate while knowing the he needed the opiate of blind anger to bolster support for his philosophies.

3. I can tell you that Marx was right, and I can give examples, can you give any examples on Capital or where he was wrong? (I can), or can you show that his overall thesis was wrong? So far you haven't shown anything other than making ad hominum attacks on him.
I am not in a debate with Karl Marx, I am actually typing to a what I suspect is a living being (you).

Let me point out that Marx always talked about unfettered Capitalism. So to his credit unfettered Capitalism is dead. But he failed to note that Capitalism can be regulated. Which is understandable since he couldnt acknowledge something that undermines the Communist Party. You must know that Marx's goal was for Communism to spread right? Why do you think that Marx and Engels wrote the Communist manifesto? The manifesto was for a political party. Political parties do what?


But the biggest folly of Marx is Communism itself. See for Communism to exist in the way that Marx predicted Marx needed Capitalism to exist as unfettered and unregulated. In Marx's time that seemed to be the direction that Capitalism was going. But Capitalism has never actually existed in modern society as a unfettered unregulated economic system. SO in order for anyone to accept Marx's predictions about Capitalism one would need to disconnect from history and replace it with the antiqued meanderings of a dead man that never saw or understood modern society. Its much like Americas forefathers could not fathom the complexities of modern America using their antiqued knowledge that they had while lived so long a go. That isnt to say though that Marx and this countries forefathers didnt get some thing correct in their predictions. Marx makes a lot of sense if we frame Capitalism as being unfettered instead of regulated. Though his predictions of the eventual slide into Socialism and Communism are silly since we could just regulate Capitalism instead. it certainly isnt social science law that Capitalism will take the path that Marx predicted. More like wishful thinking. I mean it is possible that something other than Socialism/Communism could be invented that replaces Capitalism. It was extremely short sighted and biased of Marx to assume that his model could be the only model.

So in that context I am not a strong supporter of Capitalism because certainly a better economic system could be invented in the future. But Socialism and Communism are poor replacements that are not any better than Capitalism, no reason to go there.
 
He was correct in his criticism of the current state of capitalism, but he was incorrect in that capitalism needed to be totally overhauled in order to protect the rights of the proletariat.
 
the Manifesto of the Communist party goes to great lengths to whine about Capitalism.

Actually the first chapter and half of the manifesto is actually praising of capitalism. Says it increased productivity, built up industry, improved trade, freed the serfs, ended monopolies.
 
He was correct in his criticism of the current state of capitalism, but he was incorrect in that capitalism needed to be totally overhauled in order to protect the rights of the proletariat.

I think he was incorrect on that only a violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat is needed to transform from a capitalist to socialist society. I instead look to Engels later in his life when he opened up and accepted a more gradualist view of socialism being possible.
 
I think he was incorrect on that only a violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat is needed to transform from a capitalist to socialist society. I instead look to Engels later in his life when he opened up and accepted a more gradualist view of socialism being possible.

I don't really think that the complete and total abolition of capitalism is necessary to maintain the rights of the worker, (For example, I don't think total abolition of private property rights is necessary) but eliminating absolutist capitalism is necessary in areas such as healthcare, energy, etc. But regardless, if socialism were to be implemented, democratic means would be by far preferable to a revolution.
 
I don't really think that the complete and total abolition of capitalism is necessary to maintain the rights of the worker, (For example, I don't think total abolition of private property rights is necessary) but eliminating absolutist capitalism is necessary in areas such as healthcare, energy, etc. But regardless, if socialism were to be implemented, democratic means would be by far preferable to a revolution.

One must take into account that when people think of private property they think of personal property. Private property and personal property are not the same. Marx does not wish to get rid of personal property.
 
Actually the first chapter and half of the manifesto is actually praising of capitalism. Says it increased productivity, built up industry, improved trade, freed the serfs, ended monopolies.
Be honest though they didnt stop there did they? All that ranting and all about revolution was centered on attacking Capitalism and dismantling it.

I think he was incorrect on that only a violent revolution and the dictatorship of the proletariat is needed to transform from a capitalist to socialist society. I instead look to Engels later in his life when he opened up and accepted a more gradualist view of socialism being possible.

Well then I guess that made Marx wrong about Capitalism after all. BTW I hope that you didnt just stop with Engels, I mean hes been dead a while. I would think that you ought to be a bit more progressive than that. Would you be open to a more modern economic/social system etc or are you a conservative Socialist stuck on the old ways taught by dead men? In fact why even bother with Socialism since it has many faults ad is widely misunderstood? Wouldnt it be wiser to just start over with a new approach that is acceptable to more people rather than a system that so many people will never accept? In a small way that is what the Democratic Socialists have done but they still grasp onto the old ideas even though there is a large stigma attached to them. Which is one of the many reasons that I oppose Socialism in all of its forms, its because its a hols over of old world philosophies that are antiqued. I mean if I were to dream of the best solutions for societies woes I wouldnt box myself into a specific ideological arena that seems to only create conflict (how could it not since Socialism was built on conflict, in fact without conflict Socialism isnt necessary at all).
 
One must take into account that when people think of private property they think of personal property. Private property and personal property are not the same. Marx does not wish to get rid of personal property.

SO then what about my personal property that I would like to give to my kids when i die?
 
One must take into account that when people think of private property they think of personal property. Private property and personal property are not the same. Marx does not wish to get rid of personal property.

I'm aware, but what makes ownership of property necessary to make your way in life? As someone who doesn't currently own a home, I think there's a major distinction between things such as healthcare, food, etc., and property.
 
I'm aware, but what makes ownership of property necessary to make your way in life? As someone who doesn't currently own a home, I think there's a major distinction between things such as healthcare, food, etc., and property.

Well I own my home, and run a home business from this property. If I did not own this property I would spend the money that I do on it for the improvements that I need, if I had no guarantee of retaining the property through out my life or until I decide to sell it and move or give it to my kids or anyone that I want too. WHy do Socialists insist on telling people like myself that they are not morally allowed to own private property? Who died and made you guys the moral police? Seriously it is a honest question. So you see no necessary purpose for owning private property but I do, what gives you the right to dictate your opinions on me? Cant we just live in a diverse society where the people that want to own private property have that liberty and the people who dont want to own private property retain that liberty as well?

BTW private property is one of the huge pitfalls that Marx made. Marx had to demoralize owning private property in order for his proposed society to work. Marx also had to demoralize other common concepts of society in order to make his plan work as well. Marx did not apply Occam's razor in his ramblings and tried to assert ridiculous impossible schemes instead of admitting his mistake and starting over. It is such mistakes that crippled Marxism from the beginning and is why as any Communist will tell you that there never has been REAL Communism. There never will be, its a dead ideology because of the huge mistakes with in it.
 
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