View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

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Thread: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  1. #121
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    For capitalism to survive, we need buyers and sellers. The people at the bottom of the economic ladder must have a reasonable share of the cash in circulation for the system to work.

    One good way for the USA to spread a lot of cash around would be to engage in a massive public works program all over the USA.

    There is a lot of work that needs to be done and right now would be a good time to do it. Instead of paying people to sit at home and wait for a call that never comes, the USA should put them to work repairing and replacing as necessary our old utilities, highways, bridges and railroad lines.

    This would be good for everyone in the USA.
    Absolutely. I also think that it would be well worth upgrading the energy infrastructure to make more use of green energy like solar.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Absolutely. I also think that it would be well worth upgrading the energy infrastructure to make more use of green energy like solar.



    Right and there's no reason why the USA can't have high speed rail like they have in Asia and Europe.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    For capitalism to survive, we need buyers and sellers. The people at the bottom of the economic ladder must have a reasonable share of the cash in circulation for the system to work.

    One good way for the USA to spread a lot of cash around would be to engage in a massive public works program all over the USA.

    There is a lot of work that needs to be done and right now would be a good time to do it. Instead of paying people to sit at home and wait for a call that never comes, the USA should put them to work repairing and replacing as necessary our old utilities, highways, bridges and railroad lines.

    This would be good for everyone in the USA.
    This only works if you raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for it. Which I would support, but I doubt it would pass.

    Going into more public debt hurts the middle class, as would raising taxes on them.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  4. #124
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    For capitalism to survive, we need buyers and sellers. The people at the bottom of the economic ladder must have a reasonable share of the cash in circulation for the system to work.

    One good way for the USA to spread a lot of cash around would be to engage in a massive public works program all over the USA.

    There is a lot of work that needs to be done and right now would be a good time to do it. Instead of paying people to sit at home and wait for a call that never comes, the USA should put them to work repairing and replacing as necessary our old utilities, highways, bridges and railroad lines.

    This would be good for everyone in the USA.

    Before we go spending bunches of money on government projects shouldnt we at least attempt to fix the actual problems first? I agree that the infrastructure is in dire need of upgrades and expansion etc, but what good would infrastructure do a people that cant use it because they have no jobs? No private industry means no money for those projects. What we need to do is just not allow jobs to be out sourced. Hit them with tariffs, make it more expensive to out source. America is still a huge market, but instead we seem to be stuck on he said she said politics.

  5. #125
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    I think that analogy is pretty dead-on. For the record, I do not oppose capitalism in the freed market sense, but I do oppose capitalism in the corporate-state sense.
    Left libertarians Charles Johnson and Kevin Carson explain it pretty well.

    It would be interesting to see how Marx would have revised his views if he lived long enough to witness the violent revolutions inspired by his work. Many of his critics, such as PJ Proudhon and other anti-state communists/anarchists warned of the dangers of Marx's "solution" and they were obviously proved correct.

    That is reasonable. I think the best way to go about this is by recognizing the distinction between private property and common property. If we returned the wealth of the community to the citizens then we would get the best of both worlds: a fairer AND freer economy.
    The Citizen
    I appreciate this post. I am learning a few things today. I had never heard of that guy Proudhon before. I really need to read more of his work. Here's something of interest

    To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place[d] under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.
    Dang!! That was awesome. I was driving to my business this morning and I got a ticket for some BS. The guy was out there just trying to make a quota. Any rate, those words were spot on. It's really amazing that people in that time period had realizations that are so deep and relevant, even today.

    Thanks for making me aware of that.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    Right and there's no reason why the USA can't have high speed rail like they have in Asia and Europe.
    I agree, this definitely needs to be done.

  7. #127
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    This only works if you raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for it. Which I would support, but I doubt it would pass.

    Going into more public debt hurts the middle class, as would raising taxes on them.
    I think it can be done without drastically raising taxes by reducing the amount of money we are currently wasting on defense. All that money that was wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan, could have gone to such projects. Also we send billions of dollars in aid money to countries who turn around and thumb their noses at us.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Before we go spending bunches of money on government projects shouldnt we at least attempt to fix the actual problems first? I agree that the infrastructure is in dire need of upgrades and expansion etc, but what good would infrastructure do a people that cant use it because they have no jobs? No private industry means no money for those projects. What we need to do is just not allow jobs to be out sourced. Hit them with tariffs, make it more expensive to out source. America is still a huge market, but instead we seem to be stuck on he said she said politics.
    Well I agree it is time for some protectionist trade policies to discourage outsourcing. But cutting defense expenditures would provide the necessary funds and those infrastructure projects would create jobs and business opportunities.

  9. #129
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Well I agree it is time for some protectionist trade policies to discourage outsourcing. But cutting defense expenditures would provide the necessary funds and those infrastructure projects would create jobs and business opportunities.
    ...except for all those national defense contractors and the companies that supply them.

    We are so far intertwined with defense that shifting that spending will cause an equal offset, just in another sector. There will be money for construction, at the expense of a crap ton of engineering layoffs.

    We have been screwing this pooch so long that stopping suddenly would cause just as much harm.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  10. #130
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I think it can be done without drastically raising taxes by reducing the amount of money we are currently wasting on defense. All that money that was wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan, could have gone to such projects. Also we send billions of dollars in aid money to countries who turn around and thumb their noses at us.
    Whenever I have looked at the proportions of our budget, I have never noticed foreign aid as a large enough portion to make much difference in the kind of situation to which you are referring.

    As to the military thing: In many ways, the Military budget is like a big public works project. It already channels money into the hands of literally millions of workers. The problem is that our tax structure does not redistribute wealth to the extent that is needed for capitalism to be sustainable. To the extent that it already is like a big public works project, switching the money from the military to another project would void the prosperity benefit you propose to gain.

    We would almost be better off simply cutting taxes on the middle class and raising taxes on the wealthy. To be clear: I think that would be a far greater benefit to our nation's economic strength than cutting spending on the military and switching the funds to a new public works project. However, we could do that as an enhancement to the economic effort.

    You just can't avoid the necessity of redistributive policies in capitalism, because capitalism rewards the rich too richly and the middle class and poor to poorly to be sustainable. That was what Marx said, and he was right. We had redistributive (translate 'sustainable') policies during the era where our elite perceived a threat from communism. Now that that threat is removed, they apparently believe that unsustainable policies will be tolerated by the common folk. The people who control our politics are mistaken. The sooner we let them know they are mistaken, the better off we all will be, rich, middle class and poor. Conversely, the more we wait to reign them in, the greater will be the eventual upheaval and turmoil.
    Last edited by Dezaad; 05-14-14 at 08:44 PM.
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