View Poll Results: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

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Thread: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

  1. #111
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Marx wasn't wholly wrong in his assessment of the (potential) problem, but his solution was very wrong.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    What????? I didn't know that. That can't be. If it's true the unions supported outsourcing, that is totally insane. Can you provide some reference to support that? That would be totally amazing.
    Unions DIDN'T support outsourcing...they caused it to happen. Industry...why pay the fools $20 to $30 an hour with benefits when we can outsource the required labor needed out of the U.S. at half that amount (or less) with NO benefits. If those union bastards would have lightened up their demands on industry, it never would have happened.
    Liberalismódividing up the EARNED wealth of honest, hard working and ingenious AMERICANS and giving it to the leeches who would rather waste their worthless lives living off the government teat.
    -----HogWash-----

  3. #113
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by HogWash View Post
    True enough. But since Karl Marx was a communist I didn't bother to read his diatribe about capitalism. So compared to communism, capitalism is the way to go.
    But this thread is not about whether to choose between Capitalism and Communism. It is about whether Marx was right about Capitalism. If you don't know what he said about Capitalism, then why are you commenting in a thread whose topic by your own admission you know nothing about? You would have nothing to contribute and you should know you have nothing to contribute. You were wrong about whether you should try to contribute, should we now dismiss every one of your posts?
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Here's an interesting article by George Magnus, former Chief Economist at UBS, the biggest bank in Switzerland



    SO

    Was Karl Marx right about capitalism?



    How can people without money buy what the people with all of the money are trying to sell?

    I'll answer that one for you: They can't

  5. #115
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    ok....federalist 45--The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former[ federal powers] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.

    “With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

    “[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

    “The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

    “If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

    “The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

    “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

    There you have it. James Madison, the Constitution’s author and Thomas Jefferson the author of the Declaration of Independence, specifically say that Congressional powers are to be limited and defined – unlike most modern interpretations!

    Admittedly, Jefferson and Madison were not our only Founders. These two were strict constitutionalists who feared the potential strength of any government. So let’s look at another Founder’s opinion—Alexander Hamilton who historically saw it in a somewhat looser vain.

    “This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

    Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

    “No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

    In short, Hamilton tells us that since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore — unconstitutional.
    Thanks for the thoughtful, informative post. Having said that, I would note a few things.

    First of all I would point out that the language

    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.
    does not necessarily support the notion that the powers of the states are vast relative to the powers of the federal government. This is because that although the powers of the federal government may be few in the numeric sense, they are actually qualitatively superior. For example a person that has 20 one dollar bills may have more notes than a person having five hundred dollars bills. But in fact the person that has five hundred dollar bills has a quite a bit more money than the person with twenty one dollar bills.

    Secondly, framers original intent, while a guide, cannot be taken as an absolute. For one thing, as you have slightly alluded to, various people had different points of view. Not only that, but if they had indeed wanted such language in the constitution itself, why did they not insert it? One reason may have been political, in that it may not have passed, which erodes the notion of looking to original intent in the first place

    Lastly, although you have quoted Jefferson, he himself realized that the constitution was a product of the time and circumstances. For instance the framers ideas of suffrage were quite different from our notions of today, and when viewed in the modern context, appear to be inconsistent with the notions of how a free democratic people should view the right to vote. Therefore Jefferson said the following:

    But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestor
    Of course Jefferson favored change by amendment rather than judicial activism. But still, the quote demonstrates that the framers also recognized that times change and that the needs of the people of the US would change. Therefore a constitutional interpretation that limits the sovereignty of states relative to the federal government is not inconsistent with the constitution itself.

  6. #116
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That's pretty much my take as well. The only difference that I have is that I think his problem was that his solution was to, in essence, get rid of the capitalist class. I think that's where the problem lies. I don't think that is possible. I said to someone else, that such an endeavor was like trying to stop women from trying to look pretty. It's just to fundamental to some people nature to expect natures to act in that way.
    I think that analogy is pretty dead-on. For the record, I do not oppose capitalism in the freed market sense, but I do oppose capitalism in the corporate-state sense.
    Left libertarians Charles Johnson and Kevin Carson explain it pretty well.


    And in my opinion, at the end of the day, that is what caused the failure of the attempts of people like Lenin.
    It would be interesting to see how Marx would have revised his views if he lived long enough to witness the violent revolutions inspired by his work. Many of his critics, such as PJ Proudhon and other anti-state communists/anarchists warned of the dangers of Marx's "solution" and they were obviously proved correct.


    I think the solution lies in having a capitalist class that operates within certain constraints and that has been trained that it's ok to profit from business as long as it is done in a just, fair way, that is not destructive to the environment, that does not conflict with what is good for society as a whole, and that sees to the valid needs of workers.
    That is reasonable. I think the best way to go about this is by recognizing the distinction between private property and common property. If we returned the wealth of the community to the citizens then we would get the best of both worlds: a fairer AND freer economy.
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  7. #117
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Its been pretty stable since it was introduced. China would still be wasteland if it wasnt for capitalism, now its the #2 economy in the world.
    It may have capitalism, but it doesn't have a freed market.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by HogWash View Post
    Unions DIDN'T support outsourcing...they caused it to happen. Industry...why pay the fools $20 to $30 an hour with benefits when we can outsource the required labor needed out of the U.S. at half that amount (or less) with NO benefits. If those union bastards would have lightened up their demands on industry, it never would have happened.
    I understand what you mean now. That's essentially what someone else was saying. I think paying US workers higher wages is a good thing as long as demand does not make it impossible to do so. What I see is that instead of taking less profits to pay workers more, wealthy shareholders instead preferred to make enormously more money themselves by outsourcing manufacturing jobs overseas and this has had a detrimental effect on the economy. I see the preponderance of the blame as lying with the greed of wealthy shareholders and not with US workers, although having said that, I'm sure that some of the blame lies with US workers as well.

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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    How can people without money buy what the people with all of the money are trying to sell?

    I'll answer that one for you: They can't
    That is correct. And I think that is the essence of that article.

  10. #120
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    Re: Was Karl Marx Right About Capitalism?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That is correct. And I think that is the essence of that article.



    For capitalism to survive, we need buyers and sellers. The people at the bottom of the economic ladder must have a reasonable share of the cash in circulation for the system to work.

    One good way for the USA to spread a lot of cash around would be to engage in a massive public works program all over the USA.

    There is a lot of work that needs to be done and right now would be a good time to do it. Instead of paying people to sit at home and wait for a call that never comes, the USA should put them to work repairing and replacing as necessary our old utilities, highways, bridges and railroad lines.

    This would be good for everyone in the USA.

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