View Poll Results: Who is more afraid? The one who feels he needs a gun, or the one who doesn't?

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  • The person who feels he needs a gun is the one who's more afraid.

    38 79.17%
  • The person who does NOT feel he needs a gun is the one who's more afraid.

    10 20.83%
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Thread: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

  1. #611
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    By all means - when you counter my argument with anything of actual substance I will be happy to speak to it. Just please make sure it was my argument that you are countering in the first place. Do not throw something like this at me

    since it was NEVER my argument in the first place.
    Ok, then what is your objection to open carrying in public? You said it's intimidating. If it's not about harm, what is intimidating about it?

    And also, you keep ignoring when I bring up the much larger numbers of guns around you that are concealed. So then you are not concerned about those? Why not? Because the act of concealing them means people do not wish to intimidate you?

    The intimidation thing is mostly in your head, btw. I asked you if you thought my intent if I OCed around town would be to intimidate? Or if I OCed to a kid's soccer game at the town field? Or to a public meeting? (Guess you'll think yes, but hey I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.)

    It's interesting that you cannot (seem to) imagine any other reasons why people OC. You completely dismissed comfort. Nice. Well, what makes YOUR emotional comfort any more important than my physical comfort? And there are other reasons people do so. In some cases, it's the only way they legally can in their state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Where are your examples of those guns being used to harm anyone in those public situations?
    I never claimed they were. That was NOT my argument against open carry and is NOT now my argument. It is your strawman of your own creation.

    What, are you implying that kids are 'born' afraid of guns like some people have a fear of heights? Come on...you tell me why YOU think those kids are afraid at the very sight of a gun. I gave you my answer
    I never said that either. We all learn everything we learn from ALL of our experiences in life. Singling out parents or the media - whatever that encompasses - is simply looking for a convenient scapegoat while excusing all the rest of the experiences we all have that teach us everything we have learned.

    You CLAIMED that frontier kids killed the race of people originally inhabiting this country. Do you want to stick with that?
    Do you understand what the term CONTEXT means? go back and read your post that I was replying to when I correctly stated events in the American west and you will see it is not what you are making of it.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-15-14 at 06:42 PM.
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Sadly all those who advocate open carry do not agree with you and as long as that motivation persists, it is a compelling reason to not allow it.
    Where do you have any sources that people are open carrying for intimidation purposes? Have any interviews?

    And even if there are a few assholes, why should everyone else who wishes to OC be punished? Have we seen any negative results from intentional intimidation? You mentioned children fleeing...is there proof 'intimidation' was the intent?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #614
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Ok, then what is your objection to open carrying in public?
    My objection is a very simple one that is easy to understand. Recently we had a very well publicized event in Nevada where large numbers or rather heavily armed civilians descended in one area to help a rancher defy the American government. Some even took up sniper positions and were photographed doing it. Open carry allowed them to take the initial steps to do that. The government backed down and did not enforce the law of the land. That only invites anarchy and further defiance down the road. We have enough with the whacko's writing nonsense about a future rebellion against the government without letting these human buttwipes feel they can win using open carry as a vehicle to propel them.

    That is one reason right off the front pages.

    The other is perhaps more important to me because it can happen every day in every city and town in America where citizens have a right to express their opinion. This whole open carry cause celebre is very much a right wing thing. And spare me the history lesson about the Panthers back in the Sixties. It is now 2014 and we are not in Compton. For our system of government to work as it should, Americans must feel free to openly participate in the system expressing their true feelings and opinions without fear of intimidation or reprisal. When right wingers can change the very fabric of our society with open carry, people will no longer feel free or safe in defying their will and their extremism and their opinion. A dark cloud of silence will descend across the land and this is the what the far right wants. They know they are small in numbers compared to the majority so this is the only way they can "win" if that is what it can be called. Sadly, everybody else has to lose so they can win.

    So there is a much more significant reason.


    Where do you have any sources that people are open carrying for intimidation purposes? Have any interviews?
    There are things which are painfully obvious on their face so that only a complete zealot in denial could miss them. But beyond that, the zealots of the far right love to shoot off their mouths. Right here on this very sight in the last few days a poster who pretty much is far right and almost exclusively posts ONLY in gun threads - openly replied to me stating that he wanted armed men to intimidate the people and their representatives.

    here it is from poster Crimefree replying to me where I charged that intimidation of others was a motive of the open carry movement:

    I have not one smidgen of doubt lying, duplicitous, excuses for human beings are so scared out of their wits they are willing to endanger the public's safety and usurp their rights so if the public should find out about their underhand and corrupt dealings they cannot become angry and take it out on them. Politicians not worthy of employment have been doing this for years in order to ensure and usurp power making sure government holds the monopoly of power.

    I think Thomas Jones Whitehall diaries presents the fear of these cowards as they mislead citizens with lies and endangerment of life without so much as pausing for breath.

    Politicians for once facing armed citizens in public discourse my actually tell the truth. I would love to see them quaking at every answer. The world would be a better place. All governments should fear its citizens as it is citizens task to chastise or correct them when they do wrong.
    So this is not any secret.

    Here is a news article on the matter played out in Texas

    http://newtrajectory.blogspot.com/20...imidation.html

    read the article and look at the photograph.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-15-14 at 07:00 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    South L.A. was just the flash point. Looting and arson was happening all over L.A. County where ever the population was dependent on government.

    You may remember when the first of the month came and the welfare checks weren't being delivered because mail service was suspended, the looting and arson ended. You had mile long lines at the post offices.
    You are so full of clichés and generalizations.....its really sad. The rioting only lasted a couple of days....how soon you forget. It wasn't "welfare checks being suspended" that stopped the looting...it was the fact that they finally got the national guard in. Plus.....the ones looting weren't all dependent on government. Looting is a mob mentality and a crime of opportunity. A lot of people with jobs were involved in the lootings as well.. But why would I expect you to know that? You seem content to live in your world of clichés and generalizations and myths.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    You are so full of clichés and generalizations.....its really sad. The rioting only lasted a couple of days....how soon you forget. It wasn't "welfare checks being suspended" that stopped the looting...it was the fact that they finally got the national guard in. Plus.....the ones looting weren't all dependent on government. Looting is a mob mentality and a crime of opportunity. A lot of people with jobs were involved in the lootings as well.. But why would I expect you to know that? You seem content to live in your world of clichés and generalizations and myths.
    How much looting took place in South Redondo ?

    How many whites participated in the looting ?

    Take a look at Hurricane Katrina. Those who were dependent on government couldn't get the **** out of Dodge when government failed. You had anarchy.

    Remember the Northridge quake ? If the epicenter were have been thirty miles further to the south, you would have seen wide spread looting and anarchy and entire neighborhoods whining and bitching and saying "where's FEMA" ?

    There's a segment of the population in America who have the government monkey on their backs who have become dependent on government to regulate their lives. When government fails, you have anarchy.

    You have those Americans who take personal responsibility for their lives and those who depend on government.

    You have those Americans who take the responsibility of arming themselves to defend and protect their families, homes and businesses and those who depend on 911.

  7. #617
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    My objection is a very simple one that is easy to understand. Recently we had a very well publicized event in Nevada where large numbers or rather heavily armed civilians descended in one area to help a rancher defy the American government. Some even took up sniper positions and were photographed doing it. Open carry allowed them to take the initial steps to do that. The government backed down and did not enforce the law of the land. That only invites anarchy and further defiance down the road. We have enough with the whacko's writing nonsense about a future rebellion against the government without letting these human buttwipes feel they can win using open carry as a vehicle to propel them.

    That is one reason right off the front pages.

    The other is perhaps more important to me because it can happen every day in every city and town in America where citizens have a right to express their opinion. This whole open carry cause celebre is very much a right wing thing. And spare me the history lesson about the Panthers back in the Sixties. It is now 2014 and we are not in Compton. For our system of government to work as it should, Americans must feel free to openly participate in the system expressing their true feelings and opinions without fear of intimidation or reprisal. When right wingers can change the very fabric of our society with open carry, people will no longer feel free or safe in defying their will and their extremism and their opinion. A dark cloud of silence will descend across the land and this is the what the far right wants. They know they are small in numbers compared to the majority so this is the only way they can "win" if that is what it can be called. Sadly, everybody else has to lose so they can win.

    So there is a much more significant reason.




    There are things which are painfully obvious on their face so that only a complete zealot in denial could miss them. But beyond that, the zealots of the far right love to shoot off their mouths. Right here on this very sight in the last few days a poster who pretty much is far right and almost exclusively posts ONLY in gun threads - openly replied to me stating that he wanted armed men to intimidate the people and their representatives.

    here it is from poster Crimefree replying to me where I charged that intimidation of others was a motive of the open carry movement:



    So this is not any secret.

    Here is a news article on the matter played out in Texas

    New Trajectory: "Open Carry" Intimidation

    read the article and look at the photograph.
    Wow, well thanks for being honest (I dont completely believe that, I think you are avoiding the whole 'intimidation thing for ordinary day to day situations.)

    Anyway, altho I disagree with the rancher and those that formed up to support him AND the govt's very poor response, those that came armed to support the rancher believed that they were doing EXACTLY what the 2A was meant to enable.....resistance to govt tyranny. If they were 'complete zealots', they certainly restrained themselves, didnt they? Again, you fear so many 'what if' situations but back them up with little.

    It's a lame excuse on your part anyway, just IMO. But anyway, that is EXACTLY why I support the 2A at its most basic and try to take a very strong stance against any further restrictions on gun ownership.

    The bold is actually kind of sickening. No one is doing this (except occasionally OCing to actual gun rights demonstrations). It is fear for fear's sake.


    And you never answered me regarding, if people were out to intimidate....if that was important to gun owners...there are many many states where OC is legal, no permit required. Why dont we see it more? Why dont we see it all the time?

    Edit: LOL! I cant believe I didnt catch on to this sooner but the part I bolded made it obvious. Because of your previous work and location, you actively feared this. You were probably surrounded by others who feared it, had to deal with the metal detectors, the demonstrations outside, etc. This is a big fear for you because it had a prominent place in *your individual experience.* Hey...get a little professional help to gain some perspective. Everything you write is very speculative.
    Last edited by Lursa; 05-16-14 at 03:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #618
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So parents and the media are the ones teaching kids to fear guns. And how do they do this exactly? What nefarious methods are they employing? And real life events play no role in their attitude on guns at all?
    You might have heard of this guy:


    "I've also asked people who have influence over youngsters, entertainers, athletes to be involved in this program as well. But not only them, community leaders. Jesse Jackson, Mayor Barry, people who have credibility with young people should be on the television, on the radio, as much as we possibly can telling these young people that its wrong to carry a gun and if they have information about people who are carrying guns you've got to share that with Chief Thomas and with his people as well. I've also asked the school board to make a part of every day some kind of anti-violence, anti-gun message. Every day, every school at every level. One thing I think is clear with young people and with adults as well is that we just have to be repetitive about this. Its not enough to simply have a catchy ad on a Monday and then only do it every Monday. We need to do this every day of the week and really BRAINWASH people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way." - The Attorney General of the United States, Mr. Eric Holder.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Insulting me does not negate a single thing I said. All it does is give evidence that you have no argument against my points.
    The 2nd Amendment is enough argument against your anti-liberty points. Also, don't you ever find it curious how everyone always insults you?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And why are you so unfamiliar with American history and the role guns played in it?
    We won our independence with them, an act I'm sure you find abhorrent. You'd have made a great Tory.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 05-16-14 at 04:10 PM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #619
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    You might have heard of this guy:

    "I've also asked people who have influence over youngsters, entertainers, athletes to be involved in this program as well. But not only them, community leaders. Jesse Jackson, Mayor Barry, people who have credibility with young people should be on the television, on the radio, as much as we possibly can telling these young people that its wrong to carry a gun and if they have information about people who are carrying guns you've got to share that with Chief Thomas and with his people as well. I've also asked the school board to make a part of every day some kind of anti-violence, anti-gun message. Every day, every school at every level. One thing I think is clear with young people and with adults as well is that we just have to be repetitive about this. Its not enough to simply have a catchy ad on a Monday and then only do it every Monday. We need to do this every day of the week and really BRAINWASH people into thinking about guns in a vastly different way." - The Attorney General of the United States, Mr. Eric Holder.


    The 2nd Amendment is enough argument against your anti-liberty points. Also, don't you ever find it curious how everyone always insults you?



    We won our independence with them, an act I'm sure you find abhorrent. You'd have made a great Tory.

    I know. Haymarket seems to imply that kids are born afraid of guns like it's a fear of heights or something. They are not. Kids LEARN to fear OR respect guns. And most of that comes from parents and school policies. They play plenty of violent video games.....they dont fear guns...they follow an adults lead out in public. I'm sure in the example he gave of the kids being so fearful that they were observing their chaparones and the chaparones scared them. I'd place a bet on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #620
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Wow, well thanks for being honest (I dont completely believe that, I think you are avoiding the whole 'intimidation thing for ordinary day to day situations.)

    Anyway, altho I disagree with the rancher and those that formed up to support him AND the govt's very poor response, those that came armed to support the rancher believed that they were doing EXACTLY what the 2A was meant to enable.....resistance to govt tyranny. If they were 'complete zealots', they certainly restrained themselves, didnt they? Again, you fear so many 'what if' situations but back them up with little.
    No they did not. They took up arms against the federal government and should have been arrested and prosecuted for the offense.


    And you never answered me regarding, if people were out to intimidate....if that was important to gun owners...there are many many states where OC is legal, no permit required. Why dont we see it more? Why dont we see it all the time?
    I gave you several examples. One is too many and one American suffering intimidation is too many.
    __________________________________________________ _
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