View Poll Results: Who is more afraid? The one who feels he needs a gun, or the one who doesn't?

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  • The person who feels he needs a gun is the one who's more afraid.

    38 79.17%
  • The person who does NOT feel he needs a gun is the one who's more afraid.

    10 20.83%
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Thread: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

  1. #351
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post


    Oh the horror!
    Jerry, I posted this weeks ago in another thread - I put it here for your convenience. There are people - reasonable people - who do see it as threatening. Please read this and respond honestly.

    I want to relate a few things to you that I believe are central in helping to set the stage for what I feel is one of the real key issues in America today. I recently came across the famous painting done by the great American artist Norman Rockwell of a simple man standing up to speak his piece at a town meeting.

    It is called FREEDOM OF SPEECH and was done to raise money for the war effort in World War II.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...ech_(painting)

    It could be anywhere in the land but the image of the New England town meeting comes to mind where citizens assembled and were able to give their opinion on a subject of local concern before a vote or action was taken by their representatives or the amassed crowd. The ability to speak out freely without fear of threat or violence or intimidation is central to our way of life.

    Study the painting for a minute and then ask yourself if the message would change significantly if the man was in crowd where heavilly armed men, angry and scowling at him for saying something they did not like were allowed to be in that crowd because they have a "right" to openly carry the firearm of their choice?

    Is that the political process we want to encourage? Is that the America we want for ourselves and for our posterity?

    Last year I was working in Lansing, Michigan at the state capitol and saw something which disgusted me. As on almost every spring or fall day when the legislature is in session, scores of school busses from all over the state show up starting early in the morning and hundreds if not thousands of school children flood the capitol with their teachers and other adults to get a first hand view of their state government. Last year, a group in Michigan which wants to promote what they call "gun rights" including open carry, showed up in force and in mass on one of these days in their camo and fatigues with weapons on hips and backs and sometimes both.

    With the memory of Sandy Hook still vivid, children became upset at seeing armed men in the capitol who were NOT cops nor soldiers and trips were aborted and the busses packed in haste and the capitol was virtually empty of kids in an hour or two. All because some grown men wanted to strut around with their macho toys. And spare me the contempt about my use of the langauge. These guys were yahoos pure and simple and I do not give two craps about what you think their rights are.

    Their conduct negated the ability of hundreds if not thousands of school kids to further their education that day. And spare me the crap about educating kids to the wonders of what you think the Second Amendment is. Yeah - the could have visited a brothel also and been educated to that. But that was NOT the purpose of that day.

    So regardless of what you think about my reaction to this - it brings up a central question about the competing future of America.

    It is a fact that the gun lobby and many of their supporters push open carry and want to see it become commonplace across the land. It is a fact that they want to remove restrictions on the type of weapons one can carry and even obtain. They want to oppose any effort to limit magazine size or to prohibit automatic weapons and they proudly brag about taking their own security into their own hands and not depending on the police for their safety and appear to look with scorn and contempt at anyone who does not behave nor believe as they do.

    Recently we saw in Nevada where large numbers of heavily armed men came out to show support for somebody they believed was being mistreated by the government. Their show of force was so convincing and so intimidating that the government backed down to them in a show of what some would call intelligent restraint while others might characterize it as outright cowardice and rewarding domestic terrorism.

    Guns guns and more guns taking a place front and center in society and taking a place that is far more obvious and far more intrusive than anything we have seen in what we thought was the normal everyday America that most of us grew up with.

    SO HERE IS THE QUESTION: if the gun lobby and their supporters get their way, do you want to live in an America where openly armed men are commonplace in our streets, in our buildings, in our halls, in our stores, and just about everywhere? Do you want to live in an America where when you yell at a ballplayer on the field somebody with that jersey on a few rows ahead of you stands up, yells back at you to shut up and is wearing a firearm in a clear sign of intimidation? Would it cause you concern and outright fright if you and your family to be eating at a restaurant when two fella's walk in wearing camo with guns on their back and hips and they are clearly not police nor soldiers?

    In short - is that the America you want to live in? Is a gun centric America that apparently the far right fantasizes about a dream or is it a nightmare?

    I was born in 49 and as I grew up in the Fifties and Sixties you never saw armed men in public who were not police or soldiers. It simply did not happen. People used personal restraint and exercised common sense and knew better than to scare the daylights out of their neighbors and community. In fact, imagine what would have happened if a man with a long fun had started walking down most streets in America during those years - let alone scores of them taking over the ground of the state capitol.

    So how do you fell about living in a future America where the gun lobby continues to prevail and guns are worn by more people and worn more openly and become more and more a fixture in our daily lives and activities?

    Is that the America you want you and your children to live in?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Get a CCW and bear all you want within the law and keep it concealed.
    Now here's a real terrorist:



    Beagles never shut up. OMG do they never shut up! They're hounds, they're very willful, hard to train and always barking and barking and barking and that hound yowl AAAAAHHHHH!!

  3. #353
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Link is broken.

    it's a long url and vBulliten shortens it with a "...." which in turn means the link doesn't work anymore. I've had that happen many a time. You'll need to find your pic on a different source and use that url instead; or, copy it to your DP picture library and keep the URL of that pic on the DP site.

    In the mean time, holy wall-of-text Batman. Shorten that down a whole lot.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-13-14 at 07:52 AM.

  4. #354
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    The question's easy - there's many people out there who feel that they need a gun (or guns), usually for self-defense, but sometimes because they believe the government just might come knocking to confiscate their guns.

    On the other hand, there's people out there (like myself) who simply don't want a gun, who doesn't have a need for one.

    So who, really, is the one who's more afraid? The one who feels he needs a gun for self-defense, or the one who doesn't feel he needs a gun for self-defense?
    Does it matter in any way shape or form? Of course not. If you live in the back 40 you're more than likely not going to buy a gun simply because you're afraid. However if you live in the worst part of Chicago...yeah...you're more than likely going to buy a gun because you're scared ****less because of all the gang violence. I would bet dollar to donuts that if you lived in such a neighborhood and couldn't afford to move you'd be wanting to have a gun also.

    Point is that buying a gun because you're afraid is a valid reason to buy a gun for self defense. That's why even states/cities that have "may issue" laws will give a gun license to those that have a valid reason to be fearful of thier lives. Such as living in a high gang population area. Hell....even NYC...one of the most god aweful gun rights cities there is in the US has that exception.

    Being fearful of ones life and trying to protect yourself from the thing that you are fearful of is not only a Right...but it is also a natural human reaction to any situation where there is danger. As such the question posed is obviously posed for one and only one purpose....to portray those that own guns as paranoid freaks that are too mentally unbalanced to own a gun. At least that is how the question comes across to me. I'm sure such will be denied of course. Par for the course.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  5. #355
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Link is broken.

    it's a long url and vBulliten shortens it with a "...." which in turn means the link doesn't work anymore. I've had that happen many a time. You'll need to find your pic on a different source and use that url instead; or, copy it to your DP picture library and keep the URL of that pic on the DP site.

    In the mean time, holy wall-of-text Batman. Shorten that down a whole lot.
    please try this one

    http://picturingamerica.neh.gov/down...hapter_19A.pdf
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Without a working picture link, here's my general commentary:
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Study the painting for a minute and then ask yourself if the message would change significantly if the man was in crowd where heavilly armed men, angry and scowling at him for saying something they did not like were allowed to be in that crowd because they have a "right" to openly carry the firearm of their choice?
    Here in SD we are proudly pro-OC and no you may not have a gun at an official government function at all, which would include this town hall meeting or your aforementioned Capitol grounds lobbying events. You can OC just about anywhere else, though. Grab your wife and walk through down-town and visit the shops with a gun on your hip, no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    SO HERE IS THE QUESTION: if the gun lobby and their supporters get their way, do you want to live in an America where openly armed men are commonplace in our streets, in our buildings, in our halls, in our stores, and just about everywhere?
    Yes.

    I want it to be so normal that no one even cares anymore. I want it to be as normal as an interracial couple. I want same-sex couples to be seen as that normal also.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Do you want to live in an America where when you yell at a ballplayer on the field somebody with that jersey on a few rows ahead of you stands up, yells back at you to shut up and is wearing a firearm in a clear sign of intimidation?
    No one wants to be threatened with a firearm, that is in fact one of the very reasons I OC myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Would it cause you concern and outright fright if you and your family to be eating at a restaurant when two fella's walk in wearing camo with guns on their back and hips and they are clearly not police nor soldiers?
    I see this every summer and no it doesn't bother me. Remember that you're talking to a soldier, someone who lived and was fully immersed in a well armed society where everyone had a rifle across their back everywhere they went by order of General Allen. I've personally carried a loaded belt-fed machine gun (M249) into a federal post office a half dozen times. No problem. I am wholly desensitized to the presence of firearms in the same way we are desensitized to the presence of cars and cell phones; in the same way I hope the public is desensitized to the sight of a gay couple one day.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    In short - is that the America you want to live in?
    It is the America I dream of. It is the America I hope and pray we can one day become.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Is a gun centric America that apparently the far right fantasizes about a dream or is it a nightmare?
    We're money centric. Always have been, always will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So how do you fell about living in a future America where the gun lobby continues to prevail and guns are worn by more people and worn more openly and become more and more a fixture in our daily lives and activities?
    I feel hopeful, content, and peaceful.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Is that the America you want you and your children to live in?
    Yes.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-13-14 at 08:27 AM.

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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Thanks for the link, that's a good pic.

    We SoDaks, clinging ever so tenaciously to our guns and bibles, don't allow those guns in government functions in part because as you say some people are intimidated. Even if the property is not government property, if there's a government function going on, no guns are allowed (including the National Guard if it's not a declared state emergency). No guns to town-hall meetings. No guns to polls. No guns on Capitol grounds.

    But on the sidewalk, no problem. Restaurants and parks, no problem. OC all you like.

  8. #358
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    A few things to note here....

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is a fact that the gun lobby and many of their supporters push open carry and want to see it become commonplace across the land. It is a fact that they want to remove restrictions on the type of weapons one can carry and even obtain. They want to oppose any effort to limit magazine size or to prohibit automatic weapons and they proudly brag about taking their own security into their own hands and not depending on the police for their safety and appear to look with scorn and contempt at anyone who does not behave nor believe as they do.
    Even the police and the courts agree that no one should depend on the police for personal protection. As the old saying goes.....when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. So who should people listen to when it comes to personal protection? Those that do want other people to depend on the police for protection? Or the police and courts?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    SO HERE IS THE QUESTION: if the gun lobby and their supporters get their way, do you want to live in an America where openly armed men are commonplace in our streets, in our buildings, in our halls, in our stores, and just about everywhere?
    Won't bother me in the slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Do you want to live in an America where when you yell at a ballplayer on the field somebody with that jersey on a few rows ahead of you stands up, yells back at you to shut up and is wearing a firearm in a clear sign of intimidation?
    There are laws against intimidation with a gun as that is a violation of the other persons rights. THAT is a perfectly reasonable law.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Would it cause you concern and outright fright if you and your family to be eating at a restaurant when two fella's walk in wearing camo with guns on their back and hips and they are clearly not police nor soldiers?
    Wouldn't bother me in the least. Might make me curious, but thats it. You see, where I live people do walk into restaurants in full camo and guns slung over their backs. To my recollection there has never been a mass shooting where I live despite that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I was born in 49 and as I grew up in the Fifties and Sixties you never saw armed men in public who were not police or soldiers. It simply did not happen. People used personal restraint and exercised common sense and knew better than to scare the daylights out of their neighbors and community. In fact, imagine what would have happened if a man with a long fun had started walking down most streets in America during those years - let alone scores of them taking over the ground of the state capitol.
    And many years before you were born people use to carry guns all the time...openly and concealed....even ex-cons. And yet America still exists. No doom fell upon it because of those people that carried openly. People didn't run around screaming bloody murder or stayed hidden behind closed and locked doors just because someone was simply carrying a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So how do you fell about living in a future America where the gun lobby continues to prevail and guns are worn by more people and worn more openly and become more and more a fixture in our daily lives and activities?

    Is that the America you want you and your children to live in?
    How would I feel? Proud that people have their Rights.

    BTW: I thought it was cute that you tried to play the whole "BUT THE KIDS!" meme in this post. I was raised around guns, I was never afraid as a kid because of someone openly carrying a gun. Know why? Because I was taught that although guns are dangerous, thier primary use is hunting and self defense. I'm sure that if kids were taught the facts about guns and not "guns are always always bad!" most kids would have the same non-fearful interaction that I had as a child towards guns.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #359
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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Thanks for the link, that's a good pic.

    We SoDaks, clinging ever so tenaciously to our guns and bibles, don't allow those guns in government functions in part because as you say some people are intimidated. Even if the property is not government property, if there's a government function going on, no guns are allowed (including the National Guard if it's not a declared state emergency). No guns to town-hall meetings. No guns to polls. No guns on Capitol grounds.

    But on the sidewalk, no problem. Restaurants and parks, no problem. OC all you like.
    Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your honesty. We have two very different ideas of what America should be and the environment we want to live in and bring up our families in. That is pretty clear.

    That does not necessarily make one of us right and the other wrong - the American people will have to decide which vision for America they prefer.


    I notice you said that open carry is restricted at government functions and meetings. Do you agree that open carry in some situations can have a chilling effect upon the other citizens ability to freely exercise their rights?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Who Is More Afraid? The One Who Feels He Needs a Gun? Or the One Who Doesn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    A few things to note here....



    Even the police and the courts agree that no one should depend on the police for personal protection. As the old saying goes.....when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. So who should people listen to when it comes to personal protection? Those that do want other people to depend on the police for protection? Or the police and courts?



    Won't bother me in the slightest.



    There are laws against intimidation with a gun as that is a violation of the other persons rights. THAT is a perfectly reasonable law.



    Wouldn't bother me in the least. Might make me curious, but thats it. You see, where I live people do walk into restaurants in full camo and guns slung over their backs. To my recollection there has never been a mass shooting where I live despite that fact.



    And many years before you were born people use to carry guns all the time...openly and concealed....even ex-cons. And yet America still exists. No doom fell upon it because of those people that carried openly. People didn't run around screaming bloody murder or stayed hidden behind closed and locked doors just because someone was simply carrying a gun.



    How would I feel? Proud that people have their Rights.

    BTW: I thought it was cute that you tried to play the whole "BUT THE KIDS!" meme in this post. I was raised around guns, I was never afraid as a kid because of someone openly carrying a gun. Know why? Because I was taught that although guns are dangerous, thier primary use is hunting and self defense. I'm sure that if kids were taught the facts about guns and not "guns are always always bad!" most kids would have the same non-fearful interaction that I had as a child towards guns.
    And what is the standard for what constitutes INTIMIDATION for that law to be enforced? I would suspect it involves some open verbal or physical threat. I would contend that the mere presence of armed men in the public meeting has a chilling effect of intimidation in and of itself. And Crimefree admitted it yesterday and welcomed that appearance of intimidation as one of the purposes of the open carry.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-13-14 at 08:33 AM.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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