View Poll Results: Is the Pope a Socialist?

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Thread: Is the Pope a Socialist?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I'm not sure who "you people" are, but ok, I've been saying that since I joined here.

    Scientific and medical advances are good, but that says nothing as to the moral character of the society.

    The feudal system was good (and the lord owned the property, so it was hardly stealing), and it was a type of cooperative, although I do not advocate it's return as the circumstances which created it would not reoccur. The guilds promoted inter-class cooperation, and allowed a person to advance from a mere apprentice all the way to a master.

    The Church's holding power was great. And are you aware of what things were like for women and children in Ancient Rome? Children were the property of their father and women could easily be divorced. The Church is very sympathetic to the poor, and didn't oppress ethnic minorities or legitimate political dissidents or religious reformers. The Church promoted science, ask Kepler, Fr. Copernicus, or the priest who came up with the Big Bang Theory.

    I don't. Absolute monarchy is only a few hundred years old. The medieval monarchies were limited by the power of the Church and of the lords. Also, many places, such as the cantons of Switzerland or some Italian city-states, were republics. Furthermore local democracy existed even in monarchical countries.

    Actually the medieval worker had much more free time than most modern workers.

    What I prefer about the past was that it was moral, both individual people as well as society were Catholic, and we didn't have much of the insanity that characterizes the modern world.



    Meeting with someone does not require agreeing with them.
    I am confused by your ridiculous claim that the feudal system was good for anyone except the feudal lord. If that were true, why did peasants literally everywhere try to break free of their condition?

    I am stymied by your inane claim that the Church promoted science -- why not ask Galileo?

    I am flabbergasted by your appalling claim that everyone being Catholic was a good thing -- to my mind, this is literally Thought-Police level mind control.

    But I am truly disgusted by your outrageous claim that the Church did not oppress the poor, the weak, women, dissidents, reformers and minorities. This is a truly perverse and sickening twisting of history, and you should be ashamed for having let such words be posted under your name.

    The Church's long history of oppression starts with the dis-inclusion of women in rites, continues on towards widespread child abuse, and makes a detour for a bit of witch-burning on the side. The Church systematically crushed any attempts at reform, and it was so corrupt that even Catholic priests themselves started to take issue with the abhorrent and blatant money-grubbing. Relics? Absolution for payments? Purgatory? This is sickening, sickening stuff. Executing Jan Hus? Sickening. Attempting to execute Martin Luther? Sickening. Crushing the Peasants' Rebellion? Sickening.

    The Thirty Years War was the most destructive conflict ever fought in Europe up until that point -- and what was the cause? The Catholic Church hated that anyone might not come under their control. Between Popes literally calling each-other the Antichrist to selling favours and Cardinal seats to their family members and friends, I am utterly stunned that you have any respect for the organisation whatsoever.

    Has the Catholic Church in recent years done some charity work in Africa? Sure. The Church can be a charitable body -- nobody is denying that.

    But the gall of someone saying the Church has always stood up for the poor and the oppressed?

    You should be ashamed of yourself.

  2. #32
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    I am confused by your ridiculous claim that the feudal system was good for anyone except the feudal lord. If that were true, why did peasants literally everywhere try to break free of their condition?

    I am stymied by your inane claim that the Church promoted science -- why not ask Galileo?

    I am flabbergasted by your appalling claim that everyone being Catholic was a good thing -- to my mind, this is literally Thought-Police level mind control.

    But I am truly disgusted by your outrageous claim that the Church did not oppress the poor, the weak, women, dissidents, reformers and minorities. This is a truly perverse and sickening twisting of history, and you should be ashamed for having let such words be posted under your name.

    The Church's long history of oppression starts with the dis-inclusion of women in rites, continues on towards widespread child abuse, and makes a detour for a bit of witch-burning on the side. The Church systematically crushed any attempts at reform, and it was so corrupt that even Catholic priests themselves started to take issue with the abhorrent and blatant money-grubbing. Relics? Absolution for payments? Purgatory? This is sickening, sickening stuff. Executing Jan Hus? Sickening. Attempting to execute Martin Luther? Sickening. Crushing the Peasants' Rebellion? Sickening.

    The Thirty Years War was the most destructive conflict ever fought in Europe up until that point -- and what was the cause? The Catholic Church hated that anyone might not come under their control. Between Popes literally calling each-other the Antichrist to selling favours and Cardinal seats to their family members and friends, I am utterly stunned that you have any respect for the organisation whatsoever.

    Has the Catholic Church in recent years done some charity work in Africa? Sure. The Church can be a charitable body -- nobody is denying that.

    But the gall of someone saying the Church has always stood up for the poor and the oppressed?

    You should be ashamed of yourself.
    What?

    Because he publicly called the Pope a simpleton.

    No one was punished for thinking wrong thoughts. And the private practice of other religions was tolerated.

    The Church didn't oppress those groups, save public opponents of the Church's doctrine.

    Not allowing women to be clerics? That's oppression? Child abuse? Are you referring to the recent sex abuse scandals? The paranoia about witches arose during the later renaissance period, when religious faith was in decline. And there were legitimate reformers who didn't have trouble. What's wrong with relics? Payment was not required for absolution. Purgatory still exists. Excessive punishment and one betrayal of immunity do not suffice to make the Middle Ages on the whole bad, BTW, if Luther said some of the things he said in modern England, he would be arrested. Crushing rebellion is sickening?

    There were a few bad Popes, that doesn't affect the Church's legitimacy.

    I should be ashamed of being Catholic? How many Catholic governments have killed over one hundred and ten million people?

  3. #33
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post



    Meeting with someone does not require agreeing with them.
    Of course it doesn't. But in the context of what he's saying these days, he does appear to agree with the message.

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Of course it doesn't. But in the context of what he's saying these days, he does appear to agree with the message.
    Are you familiar with Distributism?

  5. #35
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Are you familiar with Distributism?
    Yes. The Christian democrat parties of Europe are heavily influenced by it and are economically left wing in practice. Redistribution and anti-trust is the sum total of distributism that the Pope talks about, which is just as applicable to socialism.

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Yes. The Christian democrat parties of Europe are heavily influenced by it and are economically left wing in practice. Redistribution and anti-trust is the sum total of distributism that the Pope talks about, which is just as applicable to socialism.
    Which parties actively seek to implement it? And how are they left-wing?

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    All true Christians are Socialist to some degree.
    Any person who claims to be a Christian but blindly opposes Socialism, has also blindly become a Christian.

    The Pope is a good Christian. Possibly the best Pope in history at being a Christian. It is merely coincidental that his views and the teachings of Jesus happen to resemble socialism.

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    All true Christians are Socialist to some degree.
    Any person who claims to be a Christian but blindly opposes Socialism, has also blindly become a Christian.

    The Pope is a good Christian. Possibly the best Pope in history at being a Christian. It is merely coincidental that his views and the teachings of Jesus happen to resemble socialism.
    You have no idea what you're talking about.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    And this is why the statements if the Pope have to be interpreted in the context of him being the leader of the Catholic Church. Many in the blogosphere have speculated that he favors Catholic Distributism (which is neither capitalist not socialist).

    When he advocates for legitimate redistribution, he means legitimate redistribution. As an example, government break up of monopolies, which should involve an equitable remuneration.

    Also note that Distributism supports broad ownership of the means of production (whereas socialism supports government ownership). It also supports eliminating the inherent opposition between employers and employees, which is inherent in both capitalism and socialism.

    He's not calling for property to simply be arbitrarily taken. Rather he likely is speaking of the means of production.

    Legitimate redistribution requires just compensation, so taking items such as artwork or gold that have their value in themselves would be pointless.

    I don't know where you got this below section but it is not part of my quote.

    And this is why the statements if the Pope have to be interpreted in the context of him being the leader of the Catholic Church. Many in the blogosphere have speculated that he favors Catholic Distributism (which is neither capitalist not socialist).
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Which parties actively seek to implement it? And how are they left-wing?
    Before I go searching for political party manifestos, how about you cite one thing that the pope has said about economics that can be attributed to distributism but not to socialism.

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