View Poll Results: Is the Pope a Socialist?

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  • Seems like it.

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  • No way.

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  • Maybe.

    5 25.00%
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Thread: Is the Pope a Socialist?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    Ehh step in the right direction at least. He's not hoarding, and that's progress!



    PS Jesus was totally a socialist:

    "For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.” Corinthians 8:13

    “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." Matthew 6:2

    "Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need." Ephesians 4:28

    "And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need." Acts 2:44

    "Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need." Acts 4:32

    'Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”' Matthew 19:21

    "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter." James 5:1


    There are waaaaaay more. I'm an atheist, I'm a democratic socialist, but I know my Bible. Jesus was about as commie as they come -- and that's just another thing I laud the guy for. He knew right from wrong, divine or not.
    If by progress you mean "the opposite of that which is traditional", then not so fast, Distributism would support inter-class cooperatives of people in a specific profession, which in addition to being directly opposed to socialist class warfare, is also an idea medieval in origin.

    None of one support collective ownership, which is the defining characteristic of socialism.

  2. #22
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    When your offices are gilded palaces full of expensive artwork it just might make you a hypocrite.
    He's not calling for redistribution of things which are valuable in themselves.

  3. #23
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    If by progress you mean "the opposite of that which is traditional", then not so fast, Distributism would support inter-class cooperatives of people in a specific profession, which in addition to being directly opposed to socialist class warfare, is also an idea medieval in origin.

    None of one support collective ownership, which is the defining characteristic of socialism.
    I was really rather hoping you'd respond to the Bible quotes.

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    I was really rather hoping you'd respond to the Bible quotes.
    None of them support collective ownership. So there's nothing to respond to.

  5. #25
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Just because you believe in more progressive redistribution of wealth it does not make you a socialist.
    You gotta earn that!

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    When your offices are gilded palaces full of expensive artwork it just might make you a hypocrite.
    The pope should definitely lead by example. He should take that billion dollars that the church is sitting on... and go spend half of it. Spend half of it on AIDS research or 100% effective birth control, or just building roads, schools, and hospitals in Africa.

    I like the talk he talks, but now it's time to walk the walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    If by progress you mean "the opposite of that which is traditional"
    Nope. Progress means doing it better. It's not an opposite of tradition. Tradition doesn't deserve that much credit. Good ideas stand of their own accord, not based on whether they're old or new.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    He's not a Marxist, if that's what you're asking.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The pope should definitely lead by example. He should take that billion dollars that the church is sitting on... and go spend half of it. Spend half of it on AIDS research or 100% effective birth control, or just building roads, schools, and hospitals in Africa.

    I like the talk he talks, but now it's time to walk the walk.



    Nope. Progress means doing it better. It's not an opposite of tradition. Tradition doesn't deserve that much credit. Good ideas stand of their own accord, not based on whether they're old or new.
    Legitimate redistribution requires remuneration. Hence it does not apply to goods which have their value in themselves, but only to the means of production. Hence their is no hypocrisy in not selling gold and artwork to donate money to charity.

    You like when he talks about Hell?

    Things were done better generally speaking in the past. Take the guild for instance, such a system provided real opportunity for economic advancement, whereas labor unions only allow a person to better their current state, not move up.

  8. #28
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Legitimate redistribution requires remuneration. Hence it does not apply to goods which have their value in themselves, but only to the means of production. Hence their is no hypocrisy in not selling gold and artwork to donate money to charity.

    You like when he talks about Hell?

    Things were done better generally speaking in the past. Take the guild for instance, such a system provided real opportunity for economic advancement, whereas labor unions only allow a person to better their current state, not move up.
    I've just had an epiphany, and suddenly so much of the worldview you people hold has fallen into place for me.

    You genuinely think things were BETTER in the past!

    That must be it. That's the only possible logical reason I could see for holding such backwards and absurd political views.

    But please, tell me. How were things better then? Were the shorter lifespans better? The extreme poverty of 99% of the populace? The inadequate healthcare for anyone, let alone the disadvantaged members of society?

    Maybe you like the feudal economic model better -- I make stuff, the warlord steals it and hoards it in his castle? Or the guilds, which were essentially just Mediaeval and Renaissance monopolies that utterly stifled any competition, often by threats of death?

    Maybe you preferred the vast and perverse grip on society held by the Catholic Church, with its long reputation for fair and equitable treatment to women, children, poor people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, religious reformers, scientists, intellectuals, homosexuals, atheists and infidels?

    Maybe you admire the abhorrent absolutist monarchical system, in which a few families held all of the wealth and power in a country, and there was no viable system for change, because democracy was as yet unheard of?

    Maybe you just preferred the fact that being born into a Mediaeval society almost certainly meant you would never have to worry yourself with questions of politics, morality, religion, economics or society, because you were beyond a doubt going to be working in a wheat field from dawn till dusk with barely enough food to feed yourself, let alone your family.

    I guess it was a simpler life.

    Please, tell me, what is it that you prefer about the past?

  9. #29
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post

    He opposed liberation theology as a Cardinal.
    Not as strongly as non-Latin American members of the church. Plus, people evolve on certain issues - especially when non-militant redistribution of material wealth plays well as a marketing device as opposed to the less popular sex moralising.

    Pope Francis' Sept. 11 meeting with Dominican Father Gustavo Gutierrez was an informal one, held in the in the pope's residence, the Domus Sanctae Marthae, and not listed on his official schedule. Yet the news that Pope Francis had received the 85-year old Peruvian priest, who is widely considered the father of liberation theology, has excited interest far beyond the Vatican's walls.

    During the 1990s, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith conducted a lengthy critical review of Father Gutierrez's work, and required him to write and rewrite articles clarifying some of his theological and pastoral points.
    cont.:
    CNS STORY: Under Pope Francis, liberation theology comes of age

  10. #30
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    Re: Is the Pope a Socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    I've just had an epiphany, and suddenly so much of the worldview you people hold has fallen into place for me.

    You genuinely think things were BETTER in the past!

    That must be it. That's the only possible logical reason I could see for holding such backwards and absurd political views.

    But please, tell me. How were things better then? Were the shorter lifespans better? The extreme poverty of 99% of the populace? The inadequate healthcare for anyone, let alone the disadvantaged members of society?

    Maybe you like the feudal economic model better -- I make stuff, the warlord steals it and hoards it in his castle? Or the guilds, which were essentially just Mediaeval and Renaissance monopolies that utterly stifled any competition, often by threats of death?

    Maybe you preferred the vast and perverse grip on society held by the Catholic Church, with its long reputation for fair and equitable treatment to women, children, poor people, ethnic minorities, political dissidents, religious reformers, scientists, intellectuals, homosexuals, atheists and infidels?

    Maybe you admire the abhorrent absolutist monarchical system, in which a few families held all of the wealth and power in a country, and there was no viable system for change, because democracy was as yet unheard of?

    Maybe you just preferred the fact that being born into a Mediaeval society almost certainly meant you would never have to worry yourself with questions of politics, morality, religion, economics or society, because you were beyond a doubt going to be working in a wheat field from dawn till dusk with barely enough food to feed yourself, let alone your family.

    I guess it was a simpler life.

    Please, tell me, what is it that you prefer about the past?
    I'm not sure who "you people" are, but ok, I've been saying that since I joined here.

    Scientific and medical advances are good, but that says nothing as to the moral character of the society.

    The feudal system was good (and the lord owned the property, so it was hardly stealing), and it was a type of cooperative, although I do not advocate it's return as the circumstances which created it would not reoccur. The guilds promoted inter-class cooperation, and allowed a person to advance from a mere apprentice all the way to a master.

    The Church's holding power was great. And are you aware of what things were like for women and children in Ancient Rome? Children were the property of their father and women could easily be divorced. The Church is very sympathetic to the poor, and didn't oppress ethnic minorities or legitimate political dissidents or religious reformers. The Church promoted science, ask Kepler, Fr. Copernicus, or the priest who came up with the Big Bang Theory.

    I don't. Absolute monarchy is only a few hundred years old. The medieval monarchies were limited by the power of the Church and of the lords. Also, many places, such as the cantons of Switzerland or some Italian city-states, were republics. Furthermore local democracy existed even in monarchical countries.

    Actually the medieval worker had much more free time than most modern workers.

    What I prefer about the past was that it was moral, both individual people as well as society were Catholic, and we didn't have much of the insanity that characterizes the modern world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Not as strongly as non-Latin American members of the church. Plus, people evolve on certain issues - especially when non-militant redistribution of material wealth plays well as a marketing device as opposed to the less popular sex moralising.



    cont.:
    CNS STORY: Under Pope Francis, liberation theology comes of age
    Meeting with someone does not require agreeing with them.

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