Will Changing Voter Demographics Mean Increased Political Power For Blacks?

Rainman05 said:

Ok. It is clear to me that you are illiterate or are purpusefully ignoring reality, and I do not have time to teach you 7th grade biology, let alone take you out of the fantasy world you live in.

Debates can only take place between 2 informed people.

I have nothing to gain by educating you at the expensive of large portions of my time. It makes little difference whether you understand how things work or not. I offered you links to sources which you haven't read and I offered you lengthy explanations for laymen and I'm done. Keep believing what you believe and maybe if you wish haaaard enough and looong enough it will become reality.

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No you are the one that is living in a fantasy land. Before you start talking about passing the genes that cause a disease down, you first have to establish the genes are actually causing the disease. It's just as simple as that. And that causal link simply has not been established.

Here's a quote

With a few exceptions, however, the search for common gene variants -“polymorphisms” – associated with common diseases has borne little fruit. And when such associations have been found the polymorphisms seem to have little predictive value and do little to advance our understanding of the causes of disease. In a 2012 study, for example, researchers found that incorporating genetic information did not improve doctors’ ability to predict disease risk for breast cancer, Type 2 diabetes, and rheumatoid arthritis.

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Still Chasing Ghosts: A New Genetic Methodology Will Not Find the

Again, read about the missing heritability problem and genome wide association studies.

NGNM85 said:

The problem is not simply that black Americans don't represent a sufficiently large fraction of the electorate, it's that they are overwhelmingly poor. As the government tends to serve the needs of wealthy capitalists, first, and foremost, a slight demographic edge will have very little effect on the political power of black Americans. If black Americans want some measures of justice they, along with their fellow workers, white, asian, latino, etc., will have to take to the streets and fight for it.

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That is a good point. Therefore the question in the first place. However, I think they can increase their political power somewhat, if they indeed vote, and use that vote wisely. Part of the problem however is that people with money have too much power. Part of that power is the power to brainwash people, which they have successfully done. That is why you see someone like Beyonce put upon a pedestal, whereas someone very intelligent like Angela Davis is confined to the margins.

reconmark said:

I think someone is running back over to Storm Front to get some more faulty race based medical information and hope that folks here are as simple minded as folks over there.

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Yeah, people don't understand what they are reading and then they come here and proliferate their misunderstanding to others.

MildSteel said:

That is a good point. Therefore the question in the first place. However, I think they can increase their political power somewhat, if they indeed vote, and use that vote wisely. Part of the problem however is that people with money have too much power. Part of that power is the power to brainwash people, which they have successfully done. That is why you see someone like Beyonce put upon a pedestal, whereas someone very intelligent like Angela Davis is confined to the margins.

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That and Beyonce is attractive, and her output consists of flashy videos, and performances, and immaculately produced, nonthreatening pop music.

It isn't simply an issue of who has more money, it's more fundamental. It's about class. The popular ideas, the political agenda is, overwhelmingly set by the ruling class, the capitalist class. Nomatter who governs, capital rules.

NGNM85 said:

That and Beyonce is attractive, and her output consists of flashy videos, and performances, and immaculately produced, nonthreatening pop music.

It isn't simply an issue of who has more money, it's more fundamental. It's about class. The popular ideas, the political agenda is, overwhelmingly set by the ruling class, the capitalist class. Nomatter who governs, capital rules.

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I agree it is about class, no doubt about that. But currently class boundaries are largely drawn on the basis of money. And I think that is the fundamental problem. That really has to change. Maybe that's the question that needs to be pondered. How can the right to vote be used to change the criteria the define class.

MildSteel said:

I agree it is about class, no doubt about that. But currently class boundaries are largely drawn on the basis of money. And I think that is the fundamental problem. That really has to change. Maybe that's the question that needs to be pondered. How can the right to vote be used to change the criteria the define class.

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You're getting close, but you haven't quite got it. When I use the word; 'class', I am using it in a very particular sense, the Marxian sense, referring to one's relationship to the 'means of production.' This is what defines one's class. The workers will never have enough money to outspend the capitalists because the capitalists usurp the majority of their earnings. Furthermore money is a measure of the power of the capitalist class, it is not the source. They control the order of society because they control the means of production, because they own them.

MildSteel said:

Supposedly the black population is growing at a faster rate than whites. Will this mean that blacks will have increased political power in the future? Or is access to the political power structure too controlled by those with wealth for an increasing number of black voters to have a meaningful influence?

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I am not sure, but I think I would answer with a maybe not. There is no doubt the political clout of whites are in decline and with each passing year whites make up less of a percentage of our population. But it is interesting to note that Hispanics and Asians are growing a lot faster than Blacks. Hispanics make up roughly 17% of our population, 13% for Blacks and 4% for Asians. My guess is since Hispanics have already overtaken Blacks as a percentage of our population they will gain more in political clout than blacks as time goes by. Asians are growing at a faster clip than Blacks, the Asian population has increased from just 2% in 2000 to a bit over 4% in just 14 years. A doubling of the the Asian population. Blacks have gone 12% to 13%. If that trend continues Asians will over take the black population in around 30 years leaving them not only behind whites and Hispanics, but Asians as well.

How all this translates into political clout, who knows.

NGNM85 said:

You're getting close, but you haven't quite got it. When I use the word; 'class', I am using it in a very particular sense, the Marxian sense, referring to one's relationship to the 'means of production.' This is what defines one's class. The workers will never have enough money to outspend the capitalists because the capitalists usurp the majority of their earnings. Furthermore money is a measure of the power of the capitalist class, it is not the source. They control the order of society because they control the means of production, because they own them.

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I see what you are saying, and that is a very good point that money is simply a measure of power. I would also point out that power is more like a function that has several variables and parameters. Money is a major parameter of that function. I think the problem is that capitalists have used their power to influence the political and intellectual system in ways that have basically given them far too much power in society. I think the political in intellectual system need some mechanisms to counter this influence.

MildSteel said:

I see what you are saying, and that is a very good point that money is simply a measure of power. I would also point out that power is more like a function that has several variables and parameters. Money is a major parameter of that function. I think the problem is that capitalists have used their power to influence the political and intellectual system in ways that have basically given them far too much power in society. I think the political in intellectual system need some mechanisms to counter this influence.

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I would argue that the capitalist class shouldn't exist. Beyond the horrible human consequences of alienation, exploitation, etc., they are a superfluous class. Society needs workers, it will always need workers, it would function just fine, much better, in fact, without capitalists.

Capitalists will always rule, nomatter who governs, because they own the means of production, therefore they control it. The state primarily functions to enforce the hegemony of the capitalist class, and serve it's needs. The bourgeoisie are fractious, and divided and the state works to effect a consensus between them that they are incapable of reaching.

I fully applaud any effort to fight for the working class, but so long as capital rules, exploitation, alienation, and all the myriad evils that go along with it will endure.

NGNM85 said:

I would argue that the capitalist class shouldn't exist. Beyond the horrible human consequences of alienation, exploitation, etc., they are a superfluous class. Society needs workers, it will always need workers, it would function just fine, much better, in fact, without capitalists.

Capitalists will always rule, nomatter who governs, because they own the means of production, therefore they control it. The state primarily functions to enforce the hegemony of the capitalist class, and serve it's needs. The bourgeoisie are fractious, and divided and the state works to effect a consensus between them that they are incapable of reaching.

I fully applaud any effort to fight for the working class, but so long as capital rules, exploitation, alienation, and all the myriad evils that go along with it will endure.

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Well you have certainly put forward some valid points on the evils of capitalism. If this there is no doubt. However, I think this analysis has some shortcomings.

First of although you have correctly identified the source of capitalist power as being control of production, I don't think you have penetrated deeply enough to the root of the problem. Currently capitalist control of the means of production is problematic because people in general have been led to believe that consumption of commodities is the source of happiness, freedom and empowerment. Because of this fundamental false belief, capitalists have been able to punch above their weight so to speak. They control the means of production of these items, so they essentially can control anyone who lives their life on this basis. Therefore they have a disproportionate amount of control over the political system and the system that is used to create the propaganda that controls public opinion.

Although it is true that a type of happiness comes from the consumption of commodities, it is a temporary type of satisfaction that is like that experienced in a dream. When the dream is over the happiness vanishes and one is again confronted with the harsh reality that in order to obtain these commodities, he must work very hard in the service of the capitalist.

There are different types of power. The power to influence opinion is very crucial. This power has been usurped by the capitalists who have been able to influence intelligent people to create propaganda that serves the interests of the capitalists. People need to be trained to understand that a more substantial type of happiness comes from the cultivation of knowledge. Furthermore, they should be taught that they should respect persons who have demonstrated practically that they are seriously engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. A thoughtful person, who is observed to be clean, truthful, self controlled, merciful, tolerant, and devoid of feelings of animosity towards others is certainly fixed in real knowledge, and these people should be held in the highest esteem. Public opinion needs to be shaped by these persons, and not by capitalists.

Another problem with your analysis is that you see the capitalist class as unnecessary and feel that they should be removed from control of the means of production. It is not possible to eradicate the capitalist class. That is just like trying to stop women from trying to look pretty. That's their nature, and some people will have that nature, no matter what you do. Even if you are able to stop them for some time, they will just re-emerge. So the eradication of the capitalist class is not practical. Not only that, but they perform a necessary function. Human society needs commodities, and capitalists play a crucial role in supplying those commodities. Again, the problem is that they currently have much more power than their actual value, and that is what needs to be corrected.

I have not voted yet in this poll, but after some thought, I have come to the conclusion that an increase in the percentage of the number of blacks in the electorate will not translate into an increase in political power. The problem is basically that the black community lacks leadership with proper, bold vision and courage to effect any substantial change. Not only that, the black community is currently being severely stricken with the disease of improper role models. People like JayZ and Beyonce have offered nothing of value to the intellectual discourse in the US or anywhere. People that make their fortune cursing, using the N word, and dancing by (as my mom used to say) shaking their musty butts, offer nothing of value that should be emulated.

Political leaders like the President of the United States, Barack Obama, do not have the vision for bold ideas needed enact the change that is needed. Neither do they have the courage or will to do so. Instead of first focusing on reforming the education system and transitioning to a more sustainable energy infrastructure, Obama instead first focused on health care reform. And even in that endeavor he did not display the necessary vision, courage, and will to enact legislation that would really make a big difference. Instead he constantly compromised down to people who would never be satisfied and who merely want to see everything that he tries to do fail. What he should have done instead is use the majorities that he had in the legislature to enact educational reform like what I mentioned earlier in this thread. Then dare his political opponents to attack him for attempting to educate our nation's children. They would surely try to do so, and when they did, he should have attacked them like an angry lion, using the bully pulpit of the Presidency of the United States to defend the young people of this nation from the greedy predators who care for no one, but rather want to selfishly enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else. That is the way to use the Presidency, not like a timid appeasing clown that earns no respect from the opposition.

Not only that, but he should have focused on requiring the infrastructure associated with government agencies to switch to the use of green energy like solar, wind, and hydro. For example in Washington DC, their could have been such a switch for government buildings that required them to make use of solar. Then have a job training program for minorities in DC such that blacks could get training in solar panel installation. This could have been repeated around the country in cities like Chicago. There should have been more incentives granted to companies and local governments to encourage them to make the switch to green energy. Thus there would have been the necessary jobs created to get the economy going. But these things, people like Obama and others, just don't have the vision, courage, and will to enact. Instead they drift from crisis to crisis, merely putting out fires with the result that none of the change we can believe in takes place.

The problem that blacks face is that the type of change that is needed to actually make a meaningful difference in their lives needs to be radical. And in the absence of very strong leadership, the current political system will not support that. It is possible to do it, but it would have to be done painstakingly from the grounds up. Not only that, but such an effort would need to be accompanied by an effort to change the political consciousness of blacks. Perhaps a good place to start would be with groups that already have some grassroots support in the black community such as the Nation of Islam and various black religious organizations.

Smeagol said:

I think right now is about as influential as can be expected. I personally don't think it matters as long as efforts are not made to make it just a little tougher for blacks not to vote in hopes that just enough won't bother and stay home on election day. A better America should benefit everyone regardless of race.

On the issue of voter inclusion, as laws are relaxed with respect to recreational/medicinal drug use, people who lost their right to vote because of crimes related to marijuana should have their civil rights restored. In fact, I don't recall seeing anything in the constitution that says American citizens should permanently lose their civil rights if they're ever convicted of a crime of any type. I do however support voluntarily revoking US citizenship and permanently exiling hardened criminals from America, provided a host country is willing to take them in and the victims do not object lieu of reduced prison terms. It'll save the tax-payers a ton of money, get dangers to society to voluntarily leave forever, create new economic sectors for impoverished third world countries by an influx of monetary gifts of stronger US dollar from American relatives and new tourism industries from Americans who travel to visit their exiled relatives in the third world. Ultimately we'd see a more America-friendly developing world as American culture including interest in American sports, entertainment and money is exported (see Australia). I'm saying people who do not renounce the US citizenship might have a constitutional claim to vote still even behind bars and especially after their sentences have been served.

That all said I think the biggest game-changer in political demographics will be the Hispanic vote, not the black vote. IMHO the GOP has gone out of its way to communicate we consider Hispanics to be a problem. Because the other option is the Democrats their eventual support for the democrats will add more strength to the party for whom most black currently vote, so in a round about way I guess.

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I agree with you that Hispanics will be the biggest game-changers in politics for the next several years. I already notice more Hispanics running for elected office here in California.

Amanda1858 said:

I agree with you that Hispanics will be the biggest game-changers in politics for the next several years. I already notice more Hispanics running for elected office here in California.

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Hispanics are a group that unlike blacks, will definitely see some noticeable gain from changing demographics. Assuming of course that current trends in birth rates continue.