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Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?[W:29]

Have Feminists Been Used By Corporations To Exploit Women For Profit?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 42.1%
  • No

    Votes: 11 57.9%

  • Total voters
    19
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

You seem to have a limited view of morals.

Capital based morality for a price is more real than Faith in social morals for free.

A system of morals attempts to make value judgements with regards to what is right and what is wrong. And what I am saying is that what is right to capital is what makes more capital, not what is right or wrong. And I gave an example to illustrate how this is true. Now you may say that what is right is relative, and if you say that, then I will say that morals have no real meaning and your assertion that capital based morality is more real is also meaningless.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

A system of morals attempts to make value judgements with regards to what is right and what is wrong. And what I am saying is that what is right to capital is what makes more capital, not what is right or wrong. And I gave an example to illustrate how this is true. Now you may say that what is right is relative, and if you say that, then I will say that morals have no real meaning and your assertion that capital based morality is more real is also meaningless.

Why do you believe there is no "feedback mechanism" in capitalism between "right and wrong"?
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Of course they do - anytime a product is designed for men or can be sold to men they will target men. They identify "Men who do home improvement" as their demographic and then - wham. We have a macho-male geared commercial string.

Shaving cream, body wash, power tools, trucks, fast food, soda, candy - I mean, the list goes on forever and ever.

Watch any commercials lately? Gender is often exploited. Marketing plain and simple. Common place - funny - entertaining - sexist - whatever. It sells products.

What you said is that corporations have marketed more to men then women, not that products are marketed to men. I would obviously have to agree if that is what you said.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Why do you believe there is no "feedback mechanism" in capitalism between "right and wrong"?

Because the accumulation of capital is based on lust, anger, and greed, which can never be satisfied. A person whose mind is under the influence of these forces cannot possibly properly differentiate right and wrong. As a result, capital is to morals, what a black hole is to mass. Once the notion of morals is under the influence of capital, it is sucked in and can never escape to provide feedback. It disappears into oblivion, never to be seen or heard from again.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Because the accumulation of capital is based on lust, anger, and greed, which can never be satisfied. A person whose mind is under the influence of these forces cannot possibly properly differentiate right and wrong. As a result, capital is to morals, what a black hole is to mass. Once the notion of morals is under the influence of capital, it is sucked in and can never escape to provide feedback. It disappears into oblivion, never to be seen or heard from again.

I still believe you have a limited view of morals. Capitalism has to do with profit as a motive. no profit may equal bad capital based morals.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

I still believe you have a limited view of morals. Capitalism has to do with profit as a motive. no profit may equal bad capital based morals.

I think I understand what you are saying. However, my response is still that capital cannot be a basis for morality because of it's profit motive, which ultimately is based on the lust, anger, and greed that is in humans. And again, why I say this is that such a capital based system of morals can determine that it is right to kill innocent people, if that is what is "good" for profits. And that is simply not true. It is not right to kill innocent people for the sake of profit. Now you may say that is because of the use of a system with a different moral basis. And again, I will say that if morality is that relative, then such morality is meaningless.
 
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Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

I think I understand what you are saying. However, my response is still that capital cannot be a basis for morality because of it's profit motive, which ultimately is based on the lust, anger, and greed that is in humans. And again, why I say this is that such a capital based system of morals can determine that it is right to kill innocent people, if that is what is "good" for profits. And that is simply not true. It is not right to kill people for the sake of profit. Now you may say that is because of the use of a system with a different moral base. And again, I will say that if morality is that relative, then such morality is meaningless.

You may be confusing social morals with capital morals.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

You may be confusing social morals with capital morals.

No I'm not. I just don't believe that a system of morals can be constructed with capital as its basis, because any attempt to do so, renders the notion of right and wrong meaningless. This is because right and wrong can then mean anything, thus meaning nothing.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

I agree with what you have said here with two exceptions. I don't think feminists have a goal to tear apart the family,

You have not paid attention to some of the most prominent feminists. In their own words:

Robin Morgan:
Is an American poet, author, political theorist and activist, journalist, lecturer, and former child actor. Since the early 1960s she has been a key radical feminist member of the American Women's Movement, and a leader in the international feminist movement. Her 1970 anthology Sisterhood Is Powerful has been widely credited with helping to start the second wave feminist movement in the US, and was cited by the New York Public Library as "One of the 100 most influential Books of the 20th Century," along with those of Sigmund Freud and Karl Marx. She has written more than 20 books of poetry, fiction, and nonfiction, and is also known as the editor of Ms. Magazine.

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.” – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor

Valerie Solanas:

Was an American radical feminist writer who is best known for her assassination attempt on artist Andy Warhol. Born in New Jersey, Solanas after her parents' divorce had a volatile relationship with her mother and stepfather, as a teenager. As a consequence, she was sent to live with her grandparents. Her alcoholic grandfather physically abused her and Solanas ran away and became homeless. She came out as a lesbian in the 1950s. She graduated with a degree in psychology from the University of Maryland, College Park. Solanas relocated to Berkeley, California. There, she began writing her most notable work, the SCUM Manifesto, which urged women to "overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation and eliminate the male sex."
“To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo.”
-– Valerie Solanas

Andrea Dworkin:

was an American radical feminist and writer best known for her criticism of pornography, which she argued was linked to rape and other forms of violence against women. An anti-war activist and anarchist in the late 1960s, Dworkin wrote 10 books on radical feminist theory and practice. During the late 1970s and the 1980s, she gained national fame as a spokeswoman for the feminist anti-pornography movement, and for her writing on pornography and sexuality, particularly in Pornography: Men Possessing Women (1981) and Intercourse (1987), which remain her two most widely known books.

“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea Dworkin

Susan Brownmiller:

is an American feminist journalist, author, and activist best known for her 1975 book Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape. Brownmiller argues that rape had been hitherto defined by men rather than women, and that men use, and all men benefit from the use of, rape as a means of perpetuating male dominance by keeping all women in a state of fear. In 1995, the New York Public Library selected Against Our Will as one of 100 most important books of the Twentieth Century.

“Rape is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear” — Susan Brownmiller

And many more quotes below:

“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.” — Sharon Stone

“In a patriarchal society, all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent.” — Catherine MacKinnon

“The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race.” — Sally Miller Gearhart

“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.” – Catherine Comins

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” — Marilyn French

“Probably the only place where a man can feel really secure is in a maximum security prison, except for the imminent threat of release.” — Germaine Greer.

If these quotes are not convincing enough, all that is needed is to check out the curriculum taught in most major colleges in women's studies programs. It is so ingrained into western society now that there are college courses that teach women how to be proper man haters.


neither do I think that the destruction of the family is a corporate dream. Having said that, feminists, in order to achieve their goal of independence for women, have been used by corporations such that women, instead of becoming independent, have merely substituted one type of dependency for another. And that has led to the erosion of the family. Not only that but they have been mislead by corporations into believing that the consumption of corporate commodities is itself is empowering and liberating when in fact, the opposite is true. With regards to corporations, they don't care about anything except making money. And if the destruction of the family is a by product of that, they don't care. As far as they are concerned that's just tough, it's life, too bad.

Corporations were drooling at the mouth when the women's rights movement started. They realized that they no longer had to advertise chivalry in order to get men to spend money on a womans behalf. Now they could advertise that as well as advertise directly to women. Which is why women control 80% of the consumer spending. Men still spend money on women in order to get them in bed, while women spend money on themselves in order to get men to spend more money on them.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

No I'm not. I just don't believe that a system of morals can be constructed with capital as its basis, because any attempt to do so, renders the notion of right and wrong meaningless. This is because right and wrong can then mean anything, thus meaning nothing.

Why can't capitalism establish capital based morality? Right and wrong are as subjective as the value system that creates them.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

You have not paid attention to some of the most prominent feminists. In their own words:

Robin Morgan:
Is an American poet, author, political theorist and activist, journalist, lecturer, and former child actor. Since the early 1960s she has been a key radical feminist member of the American Women's Movement, and a leader in the international feminist movement. Her 1970 anthology Sisterhood Is Powerful has been widely credited with helping to start the second wave feminist movement in the US, and was cited by the New York Public Library as "One of the 100 most influential Books of the 20th Century," along with those of Sigmund Freud and Karl Marx. She has written more than 20 books of poetry, fiction, and nonfiction, and is also known as the editor of Ms. Magazine.



Valerie Solanas:

Was an American radical feminist writer who is best known for her assassination attempt on artist Andy Warhol. Born in New Jersey, Solanas after her parents' divorce had a volatile relationship with her mother and stepfather, as a teenager. As a consequence, she was sent to live with her grandparents. Her alcoholic grandfather physically abused her and Solanas ran away and became homeless. She came out as a lesbian in the 1950s. She graduated with a degree in psychology from the University of Maryland, College Park. Solanas relocated to Berkeley, California. There, she began writing her most notable work, the SCUM Manifesto, which urged women to "overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation and eliminate the male sex."
-– Valerie Solanas

Andrea Dworkin:

was an American radical feminist and writer best known for her criticism of pornography, which she argued was linked to rape and other forms of violence against women. An anti-war activist and anarchist in the late 1960s, Dworkin wrote 10 books on radical feminist theory and practice. During the late 1970s and the 1980s, she gained national fame as a spokeswoman for the feminist anti-pornography movement, and for her writing on pornography and sexuality, particularly in Pornography: Men Possessing Women (1981) and Intercourse (1987), which remain her two most widely known books.



Susan Brownmiller:

is an American feminist journalist, author, and activist best known for her 1975 book Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape. Brownmiller argues that rape had been hitherto defined by men rather than women, and that men use, and all men benefit from the use of, rape as a means of perpetuating male dominance by keeping all women in a state of fear. In 1995, the New York Public Library selected Against Our Will as one of 100 most important books of the Twentieth Century.



And many more quotes below:













If these quotes are not convincing enough, all that is needed is to check out the curriculum taught in most major colleges in women's studies programs. It is so ingrained into western society now that there are college courses that teach women how to be proper man haters.




Corporations were drooling at the mouth when the women's rights movement started. They realized that they no longer had to advertise chivalry in order to get men to spend money on a womans behalf. Now they could advertise that as well as advertise directly to women. Which is why women control 80% of the consumer spending. Men still spend money on women in order to get them in bed, while women spend money on themselves in order to get men to spend more money on them.

While we both share a disdain for that strain of feminism, I don't recall ever seeing one of these extremists call for the destruction of the family. I will agree, that is the result of there animosity and hostility towards men, but again, it is just a by product, not a goal.

The same can be said for corporations, the destruction of the family is a by product of the goal for increasing profits by exploiting women by advocating the notion that a woman who stays at home and takes care of the kids is not independent, whereas a woman who does is independent.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Why can't capitalism establish capital based morality? Right and wrong are as subjective as the value system that creates them.

And my response is that the construction of a system of morals in which it is possible that it is considered right to kill innocent people for the sake of profit, renders the notion of right and wrong meaningless.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

You have not paid attention to some of the most prominent feminists. In their own words:
Sorry, you're not talking about feminism. You're talking about imaginary feminism. Relevant quote from the linked article:

Imaginary Feminism is monolithic.
This is very important. Anything said by anyone calling themselves a feminist can be assumed to be true of anyone else calling themselves a feminist. Some random thing Andrea Dworkin said in 1973 is tattooed on all IF's chests backward so they can read it in the mirror. All IFs simultaneously subscribe to the beliefs of Valerie Solanas, Catharine McKinnon, Betty Dodson, Phyllis Schlafly, Twisty Faster, and that person who wrote those weird articles about Firefly. Or, I mean, all the beliefs you know about. Don't feel over-pressured to actually learn anything about these people.

If an IF tells you she does not hold a particular belief, there are two possibilities, and only two:
1. She's lying. She's got the SCUM Manifesto printed on her ceiling so it's the first thing she sees when she wakes up, and you know it.
2. She's not really a feminist at all! And she didn't know it, poor thing! She's been suckered! Pat her on the head for being "one of the good ones" and welcome her into the MRA fold.

As for the OP - feminism is, at it's core, about equality. Unfortunately, 'equality' includes the equality to be exploited for profit, just like everybody else. So yes, there probably were movements under the umbrella term 'feminism' which also increased the capitalist exploitation of women. However, there are also other parts of feminism which work against such exploitation - both of women and of men. I think it's a general, if unfortunate, truth that every idea, no matter how well-meaning and beneficial, has been exploited for profit at one point or another.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

While we both share a disdain for that strain of feminism, I don't recall ever seeing one of these extremists call for the destruction of the family. I will agree, that is the result of there animosity and hostility towards men, but again, it is just a by product, not a goal.

The same can be said for corporations, the destruction of the family is a by product of the goal for increasing profits by exploiting women by advocating the notion that a woman who stays at home and takes care of the kids is not independent, whereas a woman who does is independent.

While I am not one to generally entertain conspiracy theories. This is one I believe may have some truth to it. Some good reading on how the government, corporations and the media have all combined in concert to destroy the family for profit:

Rock The Truth: How Feminists Destroyed the American Family
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

And my response is that the construction of a system of morals in which it is possible that it is considered right to kill innocent people for the sake of profit, renders the notion of right and wrong meaningless.

you are still confusing social morals with capital based morals.

you cannot claim there is no right or wrong under capitalism.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

you are still confusing social morals with capital based morals.

you cannot claim there is no right or wrong under capitalism.

Yes I can. Such a system can only exist only if right and wrong can mean anything, which implies that they mean nothing.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Yes I can. Such a system can only exist only if right and wrong can mean anything, which implies that they mean nothing.

Why do you believe "right and wrong" mean nothing under capitalism? are you claiming only socialism can provide for the subjective value of morals?
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Why do you believe "right and wrong" mean nothing under capitalism? are you claiming only socialism can provide for the subjective value of morals?

No, I did not say that.

Let me ask you something, since you believe in capital based morals. Why do you believe that it is right to kill innocent people for profit?
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

While we both share a disdain for that strain of feminism, I don't recall ever seeing one of these extremists call for the destruction of the family. I will agree, that is the result of there animosity and hostility towards men, but again, it is just a by product, not a goal.

The same can be said for corporations, the destruction of the family is a by product of the goal for increasing profits by exploiting women by advocating the notion that a woman who stays at home and takes care of the kids is not independent, whereas a woman who does is independent.

It is one of the primary goals of leading feminists to distance women from men so that they are no longer dependent on them. They see the family unit as a way to enslave and control women.

More quotes for you:

"The most merciful thing a large family can do to one of its infant members is to kill it" - Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, in Women and the New Rage, p.67

"Marriage has existed for the benefit of men; and has been a legally sanctioned method of control over women... We must work to destroy it. The end of the institution of marriage is a necessary condition for the liberation of women. Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands and not to live individually with men." - The Declaration of Feminism , November 197

"Only when manhood is dead - and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it - only then will we know what it is to be free." -- [Andrea Dworkin. "The Root Cause," speech, 26 Sept. 1975, at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge (published in Our Blood, ch. 9, 1976).]

"The care of children ...is infinitely better left to the best trained practitioners of both sexes who have chosen it as a vocation...[This] would further undermine family structure while contributing to the freedom of women." - Kate Millet, Sexual Politics 178-179

"In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them." -- Dr. Mary Jo Bane, feminist and assistant professor of education at Wellesley College and associate director of the school's Centre for Research on Woman

"Who cares how men feel or what they do or whether they suffer? They have had over 2000 years to dominate and made a complete hash of it. Now it is our turn. My only comment to men is, if you don't like it, bad luck - and if you get in my way I'll run you down." - Letter to the Editor: Women's Turn to Dominate, Signed: Liberated Women, Boronia; Herald-Sun, Melbourne, Australia, February 9, 1996

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex." - Valerie Solana, SCUM Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men.)

"How will the family unit be destroyed? ... the demand alone will throw the whole ideology of the family into question, so that women can begin establishing a community of work with each other and we can fight collectively. Women will feel freer to leave their husbands and become economically independent, either through a job or welfare."- Female Liberation , by Roxanne Dunbar.

"It is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands and not to live individually with men... All of history must be re-written in terms of oppression of women. We must go back to ancient female religions like witchcraft" - The Declaration of Feminism , November 1971.

"God is going to change. We women... will change the world so much that He won't fit any-more." - Naomi Goldenberg, Changing of the Gods: Feminism and the End of Traditional Religions (Quoted at beginning of From Father God to Mother Earth)

"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage. " -- [Robin Morgan, "Sisterhood Is Powerful," (ed), 1970, p. 537]
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

No, I did not say that.

Let me ask you something, since you believe in capital based morals. Why do you believe that it is right to kill innocent people for profit?

It could be right, if there is sufficient profit in it, under any form of capitalism. only socialism claims that should not be the case for a price.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

It is one of the primary goals of leading feminists to distance women from men so that they are no longer dependent on them. They see the family unit as a way to enslave and control women.

More quotes for you:

Damn!!! That's some heavy duty stuff. Man, these people are dangerous. Serious.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

It could be right, if there is sufficient profit in it, under any form of capitalism. only socialism claims that should not be the case for a price.

Wrong, it is not only socialism that claims that. And the fact that you say it could be right is what renders the concept of right meaningless. A system of morals that judges that it is right to kill an innocent person, for the sake of making a profit, has rendered the notion of right to be meaningless.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Damn!!! That's some heavy duty stuff. Man, these people are dangerous. Serious.

When we look back in history 100 years from now, we will see feminism as one of the most destructive doctorines of all time. It will also be the destruction of the US economy and its people.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Sorry, you're not talking about feminism.

Unfortunately radical feminism is not imaginary. It is real, and while it forms a small part of the body of feminist thought, it is nonetheless influential.

As for the OP - feminism is, at it's core, about equality. Unfortunately, 'equality' includes the equality to be exploited for profit, just like everybody else. So yes, there probably were movements under the umbrella term 'feminism' which also increased the capitalist exploitation of women. However, there are also other parts of feminism which work against such exploitation - both of women and of men. I think it's a general, if unfortunate, truth that every idea, no matter how well-meaning and beneficial, has been exploited for profit at one point or another.

In addition to being about equality, feminism also purports to be about independence and freedom for women. And unfortunately, when feminism lends itself to corporations so that the corporations can associate the notions of independence and freedom with the consumption of corporate commodities, it does not make women free and independent.
 
Re: Have Feminists Been Used To Exploit Women For Corporate Profit?

Wrong, it is not only socialism that claims that. And the fact that you say it could be right is what renders the concept of right meaningless. A system of morals that judges that it is right to kill an innocent person, for the sake of making a profit, has rendered the notion of right to be meaningless.

i believe you still don't understand the concept of morals.

Do you believe it is moral to bear false witness for free under any form of socialism but not necessarily any form of capitalism?
 
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