View Poll Results: Do you support the death penalty?

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  • Strongly support

    50 33.33%
  • Somewhat/leaning in support

    17 11.33%
  • Unsure

    4 2.67%
  • Somewhat/leaning agains

    16 10.67%
  • Strongly against

    63 42.00%
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Thread: Death Penalty, for or against

  1. #471
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    No. Where does it say that he is innocent of killing the old lady? Take your time...

    Kevin Wiggins

    Kevin Wiggins was convicted and put on death row for the 1988 murder of an elderly woman in her Baltimore County apartment. The Baltimore County public defenders assigned to represent him during his first trial were young and inexperienced, and neither had ever been the primary attorney on a capital case. Rather than introducing very convincing mitigating factors of neglect and abuse that he suffered as a child during the sentencing phase of Wiggins' trial, his attorneys made the case for his innocence. His attorneys also failed to enter in the fact that Wiggins is borderline mentally retarded.

    After being affirmed by Maryland's Court of Appeals, Wiggins' conviction and sentence were overturned in a federal district court on a habeas petition claiming ineffective assistance of counsel. However, shortly afterwards the decision was reversed and the Fourth Circuit Court reinstated both the conviction and death sentence.

    Finally, in November of 2002, the Supreme Court of the United States agreed to hear an appeal of Wiggins' sentencing hearing, but declined the appeal of his conviction. Appling a two-pronged test outlined in a 1984 decision, Strickland v. Washington, the Court sought to determine first whether or not Wiggins' counsel was deficient and second, if that deficiency prejudiced the outcome. In a 7-2 decision, the Court found that Wiggins' attorneys' failure to investigate and introduce mitigating factors was indeed due to carelessness as opposed to "reasoned strategic judgment," and that the presentation of such mitigating factors likely would have "led at least one juror to reject the death penalty." Thus, in June of 2003, Wiggins' death sentence was effectively overturned and he was resentenced to life in prison.


    Specific Cases | Maryland Citizens Against State Executions
    That is besides the point. The point is that he had bad legal representation during a death penalty trial because he was poor and could not afford it. Are you seriously stating that none of this matters to you as long as people can still get the death penalty? What kind of priorities are these?

  2. #472
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That is besides the point. The point is that he had bad legal representation during a death penalty trial because he was poor and could not afford it. Are you seriously stating that none of this matters to you as long as people can still get the death penalty? What kind of priorities are these?
    No. That is THE point. You offered a Red Herring with this "competent legal representation" tangent. If a person murders another I could care less what their representation is. In fact, the worse the better so that they can be convicted. If they are innocent then I care what their representation is like. Was Kevin Wiggens innocent of murdering the old lady? That is all that is relevant to the issue we are discussing. All I see you doing is offering a Red Herring logical fallacy.
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  3. #473
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    If a person murders another I could care less what their representation is. In fact, the worse the better so that they can be convicted. If they are innocent then I care what their representation is like. Was Kevin Wiggens innocent of murdering the old lady? That is all that is relevant to the issue we are discussing. All I see you doing is offering a Red Herring logical fallacy.
    The problem with your little theory here is that if a person doesn't have adequate representation, then he doesn't have a good chance to prove his innocence.

  4. #474
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    The problem with your little theory here is that if a person doesn't have adequate representation, then he doesn't have a good chance to prove his innocence.
    No problem. Kevin Wiggens should not have been tried for the DP in the first place. There was no proof he was ever in her house. In fact, he should not have been tried for murder. The problem isn't the DP the problem is bad DA's and stupid jury's.
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    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  5. #475
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    No problem. Kevin Wiggens should not have been tried for the DP in the first place. There was no proof he was ever in her house. In fact, he should not have been tried for murder. The problem isn't the DP the problem is bad DA's and stupid jury's.
    Yes, and these same bad or incompetent people also serve on DP cases, and that IS a big deal. We want adequate legal representation for all citizens when they are accused of a crime, don't we?

  6. #476
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Yes, and these same bad or incompetent people also serve on DP cases, and that IS a big deal. We want adequate legal representation for all citizens when they are accused of a crime, don't we?
    You have taken us from the original point so far that I can barely remember what it was and I am not interested in debating the court aspects...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  7. #477
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    I'm curious, though -- do you believe it is the government's duty to regulate emotion (i.e, suffering, anguish, etc.)?

    I am against the death penalty entirely, but even if I were to condone it, it could only ever be on the basis of this being the most moral act.

    The government can't stoop to the level of a murderer -- it would thus lose the moral high ground to dish out penalties in the first place.

    Ergo, it is the duty of the government, when enacting the death penalty, to do so with the utmost respect and the least suffering. The point is for this person to be gone, not for this person to feel the wrath of the people he hurt.

    Otherwise it's just barbaric.
    Perhaps, now the guillotine is quick and painless at least after the first couple of nano second or there about. I have always felt respect is a two way street. Not just one way. Respect is something that must be earned, not just granted. For those who murder others I find it hard to find respect for them. But of course there may be different kinds of respect. Webster defines respect as esteem; honor. regard for, deference, hold in honor. I think none of these apply or should apply to a murderer. Now in the old rest some gunslingers, hired guns, fast draws, etc. it was said they were respected. But that is not the type of respect I think you are talking about. No, I have no respect for those who would murder a fellow human being in cold blood.

    As for the moral high ground, a murderer kills indiscriminately or sometimes in a well thought out plan. But he still kills, murders, takes a life on his whims. As for government, a murderer is brought before the court, he is offered a trial, something his victims didn't have. He will be found guilty or innocent by a jury of his peers, something his victims didn't have and a judge will sentence him. A judge is something his victims didn't have unless you could the murderer as judge, jury and executioner all rolled up in one little package. That is the moral high ground.

    As for feeling the wrath of the people he hurt, the murderer probably deserves it ten fold. But as you state, we are humane to the murderer even if the states takes his life. There have been times I think we worry more about the murderer than his victims, feel more pity for the murderer than his victims. One thing is for certain, we provide the murderer ten times, probably closer to a hundred times the rights and privileges than the murderer gave his victim.

    Respect, that is something we should give the victims, not the murderer.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

  8. #478
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    You have taken us from the original point so far that I can barely remember what it was and I am not interested in debating the court aspects...
    I have not. All of these things are completely relevant when talking about a death penalty.

  9. #479
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I have not. All of these things are completely relevant when talking about a death penalty.
    Not the morality of the Death Penalty... and that is what I was challenged on, not all this other stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

  10. #480
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Not the morality of the Death Penalty... and that is what I was challenged on, not all this other stuff.
    The question is "Do you support the death penalty." If you wish to refrain from discussing certain aspects, then that's on you.

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