View Poll Results: Do you support the death penalty?

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  • Strongly support

    50 33.33%
  • Somewhat/leaning in support

    17 11.33%
  • Unsure

    4 2.67%
  • Somewhat/leaning agains

    16 10.67%
  • Strongly against

    63 42.00%
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Thread: Death Penalty, for or against

  1. #461
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    So because they are guilty, but had a bad lawyer, they shouldn't have to face the consequences of their actions? You are rewarding the poor murderers because rich murderers get away with it more? That is idiotic. I only wish all murderers and rapists had bad lawyers.

    ...again, Irrelevant.
    It is not irrelevant. The point being that poor people get bad representation in court and that most certainly matters. There are no "rewards." Don't know what you're talking about, but you'd probably do much better if you'd just skip the hyperbole, backhanded insults and ridiculousness and just stick to arguing the points.

  2. #462
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    It is not irrelevant. The point being that poor people get bad representation in court and that most certainly matters. There are no "rewards." Don't know what you're talking about, but you'd probably do much better if you'd just skip the hyperbole, backhanded insults and ridiculousness and just stick to arguing the points.
    What insults? Like you rolling your eyes at me? Don't start being a hypocrite now.

    Yeah, the poor get a bad rap in court. So the **** what if they are guilty. Have I not said REPEATEDLY that the DP should be for those that are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Most that are locked up or on DP have a reasonable doubt. Under my system LESS people would be executed, but they would be those that deserved it. And I don't know why you don't know what I am talking about... it is pretty clear.
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  3. #463
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    What insults? Like you rolling your eyes at me? Don't start being a hypocrite now.

    Yeah, the poor get a bad rap in court. So the **** what if they are guilty. Have I not said REPEATEDLY that the DP should be for those that are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? Most that are locked up or on DP have a reasonable doubt. Under my system LESS people would be executed, but they would be those that deserved it. And I don't know why you don't know what I am talking about... it is pretty clear.
    Rolly eyes are NOT an insult. They are a sign of exasperation.

    You don't know if they are guilty if they are not adequately represented in court. AND that IS one of our rights, adequate representation in a court of law.

  4. #464
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Rolly eyes are NOT an insult. They are a sign of exasperation.

    You don't know if they are guilty if they are not adequately represented in court. AND that IS one of our rights, adequate representation in a court of law.
    How did I insult you?

    And "adequate representation in Court" is not a right.

    You have the right to remain silent when questioned.
    Anything you say or do may be used against you in a court of law. (Modern readings have can and will in place of may)
    You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future.
    If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning, if you wish.
    If you decide to answer any questions now, without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney.
    Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?

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    The 6th Amendment
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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  5. #465
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    How did I insult you?

    And "adequate representation in Court" is not a right.

    You have the right to remain silent when questioned.
    Anything you say or do may be used against you in a court of law. (Modern readings have can and will in place of may)
    You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future.
    If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning, if you wish.
    If you decide to answer any questions now, without an attorney present, you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney.
    Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?

    Miranda warning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The 6th Amendment
    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence

    Right to counsel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Are you kidding?

    In June 2003, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned the death sentence of Kevin Wiggins and ordered a new sentencing hearing because his lawyers' assistance fell well below the standard of competent legal representation. Wiggins, a black man from Maryland, had been convicted and sentenced to death for the 1998 murder of Florence Lacs; he was arrested because he was in possession of Lacs' car and credit cards. Wiggins' counsel failed to conduct a thorough investigation into Wiggins' history of severe emotional, physical, and sexual abuse as a young child. Despite the fact that such an analysis is routine in capital cases, his counsel introduced no mitigating evidence and failed to even prepare a social history or hire an expert to do so. This omission is critical because juries often reject death and impose a life sentence when such evidence is presented.

  6. #466
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Agreed...

    Not for that reason alone... she was 100% at fault regardless of police presence.
    The apology was interpreted as a confession. This girl did not intend it as such, because she just felt bad. However that was the consequence of being nice. Otherwise it would have been the word of my sister against hers.

    Expanding on that, it is the reason why the Innocence Project finds such a high percentage of its exonerations have involved false confessions. People are generally good natured. They feel bad (like this girl did), want to be helpful or cooperative with the authorities, are tired, scared or sympathetic to someone, and lo and behold that goodwill leads them straight into giving a confession to something they didn't do. Even if they didn't intended it, or actually realize they are "confessing."

    It's a crappy system for those that don't realize that their role is to be a complete, unresponsive jerk. It contributes to the issue of innocent death row inmates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brothern
    The only logical argument for the death penalty is the pleasure derived from killing someone.
    That is a bifurcation (logical) fallacy ... sorry. Nice try though.

    Logical Fallacies» False Dilemma / Bifurcation Fallacy
    I'm curious then. If you believe that killing is a displeasure, what possible logic do you have to justify the idea that killing another human being "upholds the value of innocent life"?
    Last edited by brothern; 05-06-14 at 08:55 PM.
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  7. #467
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Are you kidding?
    No. Where does it say that he is innocent of killing the old lady? Take your time...

    Kevin Wiggins

    Kevin Wiggins was convicted and put on death row for the 1988 murder of an elderly woman in her Baltimore County apartment. The Baltimore County public defenders assigned to represent him during his first trial were young and inexperienced, and neither had ever been the primary attorney on a capital case. Rather than introducing very convincing mitigating factors of neglect and abuse that he suffered as a child during the sentencing phase of Wiggins' trial, his attorneys made the case for his innocence. His attorneys also failed to enter in the fact that Wiggins is borderline mentally retarded.

    After being affirmed by Maryland's Court of Appeals, Wiggins' conviction and sentence were overturned in a federal district court on a habeas petition claiming ineffective assistance of counsel. However, shortly afterwards the decision was reversed and the Fourth Circuit Court reinstated both the conviction and death sentence.

    Finally, in November of 2002, the Supreme Court of the United States agreed to hear an appeal of Wiggins' sentencing hearing, but declined the appeal of his conviction. Appling a two-pronged test outlined in a 1984 decision, Strickland v. Washington, the Court sought to determine first whether or not Wiggins' counsel was deficient and second, if that deficiency prejudiced the outcome. In a 7-2 decision, the Court found that Wiggins' attorneys' failure to investigate and introduce mitigating factors was indeed due to carelessness as opposed to "reasoned strategic judgment," and that the presentation of such mitigating factors likely would have "led at least one juror to reject the death penalty." Thus, in June of 2003, Wiggins' death sentence was effectively overturned and he was resentenced to life in prison.


    Specific Cases | Maryland Citizens Against State Executions
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  8. #468
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    The apology was interpreted as a confession. This girl did not intend it as such, because she just felt bad. However that was the consequence of being nice. Otherwise it would have been the word of my sister against hers.
    If she hit the car and apologized then IT IS a confession. She did the right thing.

    Expanding on that, it is the reason why the Innocence Project finds such a high percentage of its exonerations have involved false confessions. People are generally good natured. They feel bad (like this girl did), want to be helpful or cooperative with the authorities, are tired, scared or sympathetic to someone, and lo and behold that goodwill leads them straight into giving a confession to something they didn't do. Even if they didn't intended it, or actually realize they are "confessing."
    I have talked to police, lawyers, court psychologists and judges during at least three court appearances and other minor issues with police and never once did I confess to anything that I did not do. I doubt that even a fraction of those that talk to cops and lawyers do either...

    It's a crappy system for those that don't realize that their role is to be a complete, unresponsive jerk. It contributes to the issue of innocent death row inmates.
    Something should be done to ensure that nobody innocent goes to Death Row. Throwing away the Death Penalty because of some problems is as illogical as throwing away your car because the breaks don't work properly. You fix the problem.

    I'm curious then. If you believe that killing is a displeasure, what possible logic do you have to justify the idea that killing another human being "upholds the value of innocent life"?
    I don't understand you putting in displeasure the way that you do but here is the reason for the latter part...

    Teleological ethics - New World Encyclopedia
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
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  9. #469
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I am all for the death penalty. I do not care how it is carried out, but I would prefer the Guillotine. No worries, just swish. I think we worry way too much how someone who killed another person or many people, who may have made them suffer tremendously whether the means of execution will case the perp to suffer some.

    I also am not worried if the death penalty is a deterrent or not. what the death penalty does is guarantee that whoever receives it will not commit another murder or a bunch of murders.
    I'm curious, though -- do you believe it is the government's duty to regulate emotion (i.e, suffering, anguish, etc.)?

    I am against the death penalty entirely, but even if I were to condone it, it could only ever be on the basis of this being the most moral act.

    The government can't stoop to the level of a murderer -- it would thus lose the moral high ground to dish out penalties in the first place.

    Ergo, it is the duty of the government, when enacting the death penalty, to do so with the utmost respect and the least suffering. The point is for this person to be gone, not for this person to feel the wrath of the people he hurt.

    Otherwise it's just barbaric.

  10. #470
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    Re: Death Penalty, for or against

    Quote Originally Posted by Ad_Captandum View Post
    Otherwise it's just barbaric.
    Capital punishment is always barbaric.
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