View Poll Results: Who should stand up to Russia?

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  • US

    3 10.34%
  • EU

    8 27.59%
  • UKRAINE

    3 10.34%
  • RUSSIA ARE NOT THE BAD GUYS

    2 6.90%
  • STAY OUT OF IT

    13 44.83%
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Thread: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

  1. #11
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I think that Americas place in the world right now is leading it and it has done since the start of the cold war where it was the only thing stopping Russia from running riot. However I agree that now is the time for someone else to step up and in my opinion that should be the EU ( Britain included). The force should itself should represent NATO and America should obviously be involved given its global power and position but it should be led by EU countries. If we want the EU to work and we want to deter Putin then the EU needs to show it will not be pushed around and that member states/ potential members states will be protected. The worse thing that can happen in my opinion is that the US deploy thousands of troops again and begin to heavily garrison bases in Germany etc. That will only make matters worse.
    I agree that it's up to the EU to take a stand. If the EU wants America to take the lead, then it should say so and we should all work together as allies. What I do not want is for some yokels in D.C. sitting around deciding how "they" are going to handle the Russian crisis without giving a second thought as to how their decisions will affect the Europeans and without doing something as simple as asking the Europeans what they need from us, if they do indeed believe they need anything at all.

  2. #12
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I have to disagree with you there. I think given the sheer scale of WW2 it was inevitable that America got involved and the soldiers who died in that war did so defending the US.
    We got involved in that war by provoking them into attacking us so that we can go oh look they attacked us first so we should do something.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #13
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I agree that it's up to the EU to take a stand. If the EU wants America to take the lead, then it should say so and we should all work together as allies. What I do not want is for some yokels in D.C. sitting around deciding how "they" are going to handle the Russian crisis without giving a second thought as to how their decisions will affect the Europeans and without doing something as simple as asking the Europeans what they need from us, if they do indeed believe they need anything at all.

    Out of interest what kind of Russian provocation do you feel would warrant a full US response?
    Last edited by Higgins86; 04-26-14 at 01:46 AM.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

  4. #14
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Beaudreaux is right, in my opinion. America is weary of war, and many believe our current president does not have the mettle or the international experience to take on a man like Putin, who has been a global top dog for decades. We are mired in Afghanistan and (now) to a lesser extent Iraq because of past poor choices. We see tens of thousands of our sons, our brothers, our sisters, our neighbors and friends, coming back from war changed, damaged, sometimes defeated by the trauma they've seen. We do not want any more of it.

    Which is why we cannot afford to allow any part of Europe to fall to Russian aggression, which could trigger a domino-effect of Greater Russia chewing its way through the continent.

    But... and it's a big one, the USA can not, should not, and will not take on Russia alone. Whether through NATO or military alliances with our European allies, the US should be part of the alliance, but should not lead it. Europe should and must take a leadership role in its own backyard, because Europe knows its own people, its own territory, and the political nuances surrounding them better than the US, for all its intelligence, could ever hope to. And Europeans will be more quickly devastated by the consequences of a widespread war than Americans, so if they are reluctant to act because they know what could lie ahead if the Russians aren't bluffing and are willing to sack the continent to get the territory they want, then I for one would allow them to make that choice, even if ends up being the wrong one.

    Make no mistake, I'm more concerned about a "world war" now that I ever have been in my lifetime. It is not America's place, however, to lead the charge and run roughshod over half of Europe in order to personally belly-bump our old nemesis. If Europe wants our help, we should give it without reservation, and let them tell us what they need from us rather than us telling them what we are going to do.

    Naive of me, perhaps, but it's what I think.
    This is becoming a pivotable turning point as dicey as the Cuban missile crisis. Russia is like a hungry pitbull to get back it's super nation status, since losing the USSR confederation. They don't trust our government and are fighting for natural resources (gas-oil), so they can keep a stranglehold on the EU purchases.

    What people may not realize is that any real confrontation with Russia could escalate out of proportion very quickly. It's going to take some nerves of steel to draw that line they can't cross, on gathering more land, and when to say, let them have it if they're going to go all out.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Out of interest what kind of Russian provocation do you feel you warrant a full US response?
    You mean on its own, without considering how the Europeans would be affected? Only if Russia started raining nukes on western Europe, rendering them unable to effectively defend themselves. Otherwise, the EU must take the responsibility of deciding what should be done, who should do it, and how they (the Europeans) would be affected by it.

    I told my husband ages ago, before Russia entered Crimea let alone annexed it, that was exactly what Russia was going to do. I also told him I thought Putin planned to take the eastern third of Ukraine, and put it under Russian control. That is exactly what Putin is setting up now, by putting in black ops to coordinated pro-Russian militias. What I do not yet have a handle on is what he plans to do after he has occupied eastern Ukraine. If he makes no further moves, my guess is that the EU will not want anything done to further destabilize the region and disrupt their own energy supply.

    That being the case, the USA should stay out of it unless it's help is requested by an ally with which we have a binding defense treaty... which at the moment, is western Ukraine. That's a sticky wicket because the Kiev government is completely inept and inexperienced, without the expertise to know what it needs or what the repercussions might be. Make no mistake, the USA will be involved in the Russia-Ukraine situation because of that treaty, and Europe knows it. As to any further involvement of the USA in the region, my opinion is that there should be none unless the Europeans request it.

  6. #16
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    This is becoming a pivotable turning point as dicey as the Cuban missile crisis. Russia is like a hungry pitbull to get back it's super nation status, since losing the USSR confederation. They don't trust our government and are fighting for natural resources (gas-oil), so they can keep a stranglehold on the EU purchases.

    What people may not realize is that any real confrontation with Russia could escalate out of proportion very quickly. It's going to take some nerves of steel to draw that line they can't cross, on gathering more land, and when to say, let them have it if they're going to go all out.

    I still think it's a bluff from Putin and he is testing NATO's resolve. I think any show of actual strength in the region will be enough to put him back in his box.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

  7. #17
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I still think it's a bluff from Putin and he is testing NATO's resolve. I think any show of actual strength in the region will be enough to put him back in his box.
    It is a bluff to a certain degree, that's why I said Obama will have to draw a line and say, cross it and it's game over. They won't respect any tit for tat nonsense, and let it go further than it should. Even a very limited nuke exchange will effectively rearrange civilization as we know it.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  8. #18
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I agree that it's up to the EU to take a stand. If the EU wants America to take the lead, then it should say so and we should all work together as allies. What I do not want is for some yokels in D.C. sitting around deciding how "they" are going to handle the Russian crisis without giving a second thought as to how their decisions will affect the Europeans and without doing something as simple as asking the Europeans what they need from us, if they do indeed believe they need anything at all.
    Absolutely right. The US is letting the EU make it an American problem and an American confrontation. That is irresponsible.
    Having said that, it is true that the EU is responsible for the crisis, because the initiated the actions that have landed us here and because it is their neighborhood. But they are incapable and cannot handle the thing. But Obama has been no better, unless he wants to demonstrate here that it is necessary to install an international mechanism that to handle international security and r2p.

  9. #19
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    You mean on its own, without considering how the Europeans would be affected? Only if Russia started raining nukes on western Europe, rendering them unable to effectively defend themselves. Otherwise, the EU must take the responsibility of deciding what should be done, who should do it, and how they (the Europeans) would be affected by it.

    I told my husband ages ago, before Russia entered Crimea let alone annexed it, that was exactly what Russia was going to do. I also told him I thought Putin planned to take the eastern third of Ukraine, and put it under Russian control. That is exactly what Putin is setting up now, by putting in black ops to coordinated pro-Russian militias. What I do not yet have a handle on is what he plans to do after he has occupied eastern Ukraine. If he makes no further moves, my guess is that the EU will not want anything done to further destabilize the region and disrupt their own energy supply.

    That being the case, the USA should stay out of it unless it's help is requested by an ally with which we have a binding defense treaty... which at the moment, is western Ukraine. That's a sticky wicket because the Kiev government is completely inept and inexperienced, without the expertise to know what it needs or what the repercussions might be. Make no mistake, the USA will be involved in the Russia-Ukraine situation because of that treaty, and Europe knows it. As to any further involvement of the USA in the region, my opinion is that there should be none unless the Europeans request it.

    and right now the EU is feeling around in the dark for answers. It has been interesting to me to watch my own governments reaction to the crisis which so far has been very muted, we seem to be waiting on Germany etc to make a move/ watching the US. We have enough clout to make Russia think twice but our government seems to be in a similar situation to the US where it isn't really sure on what course of action is appropriate given our relative distance from the Ukraine and so far lack of credible threat to our own interests.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

  10. #20
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    Re: Who's should stand upto to Russia?`

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    and right now the EU is feeling around in the dark for answers. It has been interesting to me to watch my own governments reaction to the crisis which so far has been very muted, we seem to be waiting on Germany etc to make a move/ watching the US. We have enough clout to make Russia think twice but our government seems to be in a similar situation to the US where it isn't really sure on what course of action is appropriate given our relative distance from the Ukraine and so far lack of credible threat to our own interests.
    The problem with waiting for Germany is that Germany is singularly poorly prepared to handle matters of inernational security. It has had no experience having abdicated responsibility and costs to others. Many of the myths that have evolved to justify this policy of free riding blick mist actions that international security that are poorly understood. Also the country has made itself dependent on Russian energy and is not an independent actor.

    It is a tragedy that the EU would look there for decisions.

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