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Is Snowden a traitor?

Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?


  • Total voters
    81
36 out of 67 is not much of a most.
And we have no idea how many of them are coming from Putin-sympathizers.
We do know the Amash/Paul coalition is all over the internet .

I haven't seen a single defense of Putin in any thread on this forum. I also haven't seen any evidence that Snowden gave Putin or the Chinese any information that wasn't previously made public, just lots of speculation.
 
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Right On! While we're at it, I think we should force U.S. troops to hold a trial with a jury of native Afghani's and convict each individual Taliban before they shoot back during firefights. It's their right, after all.

Shooting back at people on a battlefield is legitimate and legal per international law. Assassinations away from the battlefield are not. I don't have a problem with a handful of assassinations under very limited circumstances such as a strong evidence of an imminent threat and impossibility of capture without excessive collateral damage. Drones have made assassinations too easy and they are being used excessively. The blowback will probably be greater than any advantage.
 
Spying and large scale data mining is not only legitimate in the international areana. It would be irresponsible to neglect it.

It shouldn't target individuals or groups without reasonable suspicion.
 
I challenge those who think that collecting metadata is harmless to post their phone bills online.
 
People on the left don't support having a secret government that makes major foreign policy decisions without the consent of our legislators. People on the left support the Bill of Rights, including the right to be free from search and seizure without a warrant or probable cause. People on the left believe in respecting the basic human rights of everyone in the world, not just the residents of the USA. People on the left don't support war and violent covert action for the purpose of increasing the profits of mega-corporations. Informed people on the left are well aware of CointelPro and the Hoover-era's FBI spying on people and sabotaging groups because of their political views (which happened under both Democrats and Republicans). Informed people on the left are aware that J.E. Hoover amassed a huge amount of power and influence by blackmailing and threatening other officials. Informed people on the left are aware of the thousands of people murdered by death quads and military dictatorships as a direct result of the USA's covert actions. Informed people on the left know that many of our current problems of oppressive governments, war and terrorism are blowback from covert operations to kill and overthrow democratically elected leaders and governments.

Thanks for the sermon, bishop.
 
I have seen no evidence that he gave any information to the Russia, China or any other government. I haven't heard of any information being released that will make it more likely that some "kid will get blown to bits by an IED." That was already happening before Manning or Snowden. Snowden did a lot of good by allowing the people of the USA, for the first time in a long time, to be informed and involved in the policy discussions regarding how much we are willing to sacrifice our freedom and privacy for safety.

Who would you expect to give you the information? The Russians?:lamo Snowden?:lamo

The simple fact is that he fled to Russia with every military secret possessed by the NSA. And you don't think the Russians now have that? How incredibly naïve of you. The simple truth is that you Snowden worshippers wouldn't believe the evidence if it was presented to you on a silver platter. To you, Snowden is some kind of hero that can do no wrong. You should be ashamed of yourselves for the contempt you show for the security of the United States.
 
Shooting back at people on a battlefield is legitimate and legal per international law. Assassinations away from the battlefield are not. I don't have a problem with a handful of assassinations under very limited circumstances such as a strong evidence of an imminent threat and impossibility of capture without excessive collateral damage. Drones have made assassinations too easy and they are being used excessively. The blowback will probably be greater than any advantage.

I think we should do away with drone attacks, and you and your like minded friends should volunteer to go into western Pakistan or Yemen and perform citizen's arrests on these terrorists and traitors.
 
Joe Sixpack is We the People. I trust the people, when sufficiently informed, more than bureaucrats, a small handful of selected politicians*, generals, contractors and vendors to make major policy decisions about whether we are entitled to privacy, whether we should respect the autonomy or privacy of the people of other nations, whether we should engage in a cyber sabotage war with other nations, and whether we should be allowed to kill anyone, anywhere without due process.

*like Sen Feinstein who had no problem with spying on us until the spies turned on her own staff

Joe SixPack is we the people, but so are the bureaucrats, and those bureaucrats have more complete information and are able to actually work together to make rational decisions.
 
For some reason today, my attitude is to listen to someone that is defending a person that I hate with a passion.
My normal tack is to look at the politics involved, where the defenders are TEA/Libertarians and Liberal DEMs,
an aforementioned coalition I call the Amash/Paul anti-NSA coalition.
I haven't seen a single defense of Putin in any thread on this forum.
I also haven't seen any evidence that Snowden gave Putin or the Chinese any information that wasn't previously made public, just lots of speculation.
It's obvious the secret information gathering is out-of-control.
I don't know the specifics of whether this all started with President Truman and the invention of the CIA.
I am intrigued with MJ-12 and how much we really don't know.

I will continue to believe the worst of this Snowden for running to Putin and whatever secrets he took with him .
 
I think we should do away with drone attacks, and you and your like minded friends should volunteer to go into western Pakistan or Yemen and perform citizen's arrests on these terrorists and traitors.

Can we assume that you would have no problem with China, or any other government, doing drone strikes in the USA against legal residents as long as that foreign government tells us that the people they plan to kill are terrorists? If not, what is the principal that makes it OK for us, but not for others?
 
Joe SixPack is we the people, but so are the bureaucrats, and those bureaucrats have more complete information and are able to actually work together to make rational decisions.

True, but bureaucrats, a small handful of selected politicians*, generals, contractors and vendors that are making these policy decisions have their own interests that may not be compatible with the public interest. Many of them have a financial incentive to maintain endless war.
 
Can we assume that you would have no problem with China, or any other government, doing drone strikes in the USA against legal residents as long as that foreign government tells us that the people they plan to kill are terrorists? If not, what is the principal that makes it OK for us, but not for others?

Really? You're equating China with the United States now? Look, I know there's a real hatred for the United States on both the Far Left and the Far Right, but that's ridiculous. Let me explain the principle to you. The principle is that these people are part of an organization that is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans and even more citizens of other countries. If we sheltered people in our country who were devoting their lives to killing as many Chinese people as possible, and we not only sheltered them but supported them, then yes - China would have every right to do whatever was necessary to protect their own citizens if we refused to do so.

Seriously though, you've got to stop this moral equivalence nonsense between the United States and gangster terrorists. It doesn't exist.
 
True, but bureaucrats, a small handful of selected politicians*, generals, contractors and vendors that are making these policy decisions have their own interests that may not be compatible with the public interest. Many of them have a financial incentive to maintain endless war.

Those bureaucrats are selected by we the people. Joe SixPack is chosen by those bureaucrats to have access to classified information. Your premise is kinda full of holes.
 
Those bureaucrats are selected by we the people. Joe SixPack is chosen by those bureaucrats to have access to classified information. Your premise is kinda full of holes.

Condemning Snowden requires holding these beliefs:

Allowing our government to obtain and use the ability to spy on virtually anyone, anywhere at anytime benefits us citizens.
We can trust the government to use their top secret programs only for our protection.
We can trust the government to harm other people only when there is a known threat to our safety and there is no viable alternative.
The interests of the politicians, bureaucrats, military personnel, contractors and vendors that control our intelligence and security apparatus are exactly the same as the public's interests.

The USA should have the ability to control the political decisions made by every other nation.
 
I don't accept the premise if the question. Patriotism is the religion of the state. It is a mythology that serves to obscure class conflict. Snowden has exposed the bloated, and dangerously out of control, American national security state. That's a good thing.
 
Condemning Snowden requires holding these beliefs:

Allowing our government to obtain and use the ability to spy on virtually anyone, anywhere at anytime benefits us citizens.
We can trust the government to use their top secret programs only for our protection.
We can trust the government to harm other people only when there is a known threat to our safety and there is no viable alternative.
The interests of the politicians, bureaucrats, military personnel, contractors and vendors that control our intelligence and security apparatus are exactly the same as the public's interests.

The USA should have the ability to control the political decisions made by every other nation.

No, it does not require holding those beliefs to condemn Snowden.
 
Condemning Snowden requires holding these beliefs:

Allowing our government to obtain and use the ability to spy on virtually anyone, anywhere at anytime benefits us citizens.
We can trust the government to use their top secret programs only for our protection.
We can trust the government to harm other people only when there is a known threat to our safety and there is no viable alternative.
The interests of the politicians, bureaucrats, military personnel, contractors and vendors that control our intelligence and security apparatus are exactly the same as the public's interests.

The USA should have the ability to control the political decisions made by every other nation.

Interesting that you don't trust the U.S. government to use top secret programs but you do trust the Russians with our top secret programs. Speaks volumes about you and your political philosophy.
 
Interesting that you don't trust the U.S. government to use top secret programs but you do trust the Russians with our top secret programs. Speaks volumes about you and your political philosophy.

I have seen no evidence that Snowden gave the Russians any information.
 
We've already discussed that. Let me try one more time. Snowden fled to Russia with every single military secret known to the NSA. The guy who welcomed him with open arms is a former KGB officer named Vladamir Putin. The KGB, when not arresting, torturing, and imprisoning their own citizens, was the primary Soviet instrument for gathering intelligence about the United States. You are either the most naïve individual on the planet, or you simply don't care.

Again, your refusal to recognize this simple 2 + 2 = 4 equation speaks volumes about your political philosophy.
 
True, but bureaucrats, a small handful of selected politicians*, generals, contractors and vendors that are making these policy decisions have their own interests that may not be compatible with the public interest. Many of them have a financial incentive to maintain endless war.

After the Pentagon was audited, and it was discovered that over two trillion dollars had been "lost," September 11. Terror is a synonym for money.





Special Report: The Pentagon's doctored ledgers conceal epic waste | Reuters

Linda Woodford spent the last 15 years of her career inserting phony numbers in the U.S. Department of Defense's accounts.

Every month until she retired in 2011, she says, the day came when the Navy would start dumping numbers on the Cleveland, Ohio, office of the Defense Finance and Accounting Service, the Pentagon's main accounting agency. Using the data they received, Woodford and her fellow DFAS accountants there set about preparing monthly reports to square the Navy's books with the U.S. Treasury's - a balancing-the-checkbook maneuver required of all the military services and other Pentagon agencies.

t the DFAS offices that handle accounting for the Army, Navy, Air Force and other defense agencies, fudging the accounts with false entries is standard operating procedure, Reuters has found. And plugging isn't confined to DFAS (pronounced DEE-fass). Former military service officials say record-keeping at the operational level throughout the services is rife with made-up numbers to cover lost or missing information.

A review of multiple reports from oversight agencies in recent years shows that the Pentagon also has systematically ignored warnings about its accounting practices. "These types of adjustments, made without supporting documentation … can mask much larger problems in the original accounting data," the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, said in a December 2011 report.

Plugs also are symptomatic of one very large problem: the Pentagon's chronic failure to keep track of its money - how much it has, how much it pays out and how much is wasted or stolen.

The section of this report entitled ""AMALGAM OF FIEFDOMS" is especially interesting. Educate yourselves, people.
 
We've already discussed that. Let me try one more time. Snowden fled to Russia with every single military secret known to the NSA. The guy who welcomed him with open arms is a former KGB officer named Vladamir Putin. The KGB, when not arresting, torturing, and imprisoning their own citizens, was the primary Soviet instrument for gathering intelligence about the United States. You are either the most naïve individual on the planet, or you simply don't care.

Again, your refusal to recognize this simple 2 + 2 = 4 equation speaks volumes about your political philosophy.

That is not evidence that he gave anything to Russia. If the Russians seized his data it would have tainted their big PR win from allowing him into the county.

He attempted to go to other places first, he did not go directly to Russia.
 
Why do you continue to pretend this is only about the metadata program? Even if that never existed or was excused, Snowden is a traitor for everything else he exposed.

Snowden never exposed anything that hurt the People. His actions only were detrimental to the govt., which is good.
 
I would also like to add that does not mean I give a full stamp of approval to the NSA and have issues ...yet I think Snowden is a traitor based on the evidence.

He damaged our relationships

<snip>Quit lumping us all in w/the US govt. and its agenda. Thank you.
 
If he doesn't care about America then how the hell is he a traitor? Stupid ****ing question...
 
It shouldn't target individuals or groups without reasonable suspicion.

Oh, but there is reasonable suspicion. We know a crime has been committed and that anybody could have done so. We must reduce the number of potential perpetrators. The first steps are easy. It cannot have been someone who was on the other side of the world at the time. It cannot have been anyone, who was in jail at the time....

We know that there was a murder for instance. We believe it was committed within a time frame. All 2.000 mobiles within a range are possible perps and all outside are much less ie not totally excluded but less somewhat probable. Checking them out is albeit a very simple case of data mining. Though most of the thousand persons are certainly innocent the data should be checked. The same in a somewhat more complicated context is true for political bribes, drug trafficking, theft, insider trading ect, ect, ect. In all of these cases the data used to eliminate the innocent and narrow down the number of suspects is essentially the same. Only more of it and of greater difficulty to manage.

Should we mind the streets being video monitored and on tape? I don't think so. I lived in an area where everything that happened on the streets was recorded and worked in a sector, where no phone call was allowed that was not taped. This is simple self protection. The crime rate in the streets collapsed and you could always prove that you what you had said. That is great.

That is good, because the higher availability of data reduces the probability of false indictment. It makes it more probable that the right guy or gal will be captured and in shorter time.

It also gives the citizenry a much better way of controlling the people it must give power over itself in order to do the jobs of government. We would never have been able to get Nixon, if actions in the White House were not continuously taped.
 
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