View Poll Results: Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?

Voters
98. You may not vote on this poll
  • yes

    45 45.92%
  • no

    53 54.08%
Page 4 of 33 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 322

Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #31
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    56,236

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I'm kind of in the middle on this, because nothing he did is really going to stop the Intelligence community from using technology to spy on whomever they choose.
    Actually it does. All our SIGINT methods and technology have been "burned". It's back to square one. In the meantime, Russia now has proven that it has the ability to achieve
    strategic surprise against the United States, meaning that probably many other entities can as well. Because our collection is now useless.


    What Snowden did wasn't like publishing the name of the one agent who kills an American citizen. What he did was the equivalent of publishing the actual name of every single American agent out there in order to also publish the name of one agent who kills an American citizen.


    He also said a couple things in his defense that are somewhat plausible.

    He said he believed in the principle declared at Nuremberg in 1945: "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring." Of course this was in reference to the soldiers involved in the Holocaust.
    that's nice. I myself think that society would be better off and more moral without all those abortions. I am therefore morally correct in blowing up abortion clinics full of people, right?

    OR, we can have Rule of Law in place of anarchy where every man feels the right to impose his beliefs over others.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  2. #32
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:53 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    39,457

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Unlike you I won't heronize those who wiped their fecal covered asses with the Constitution under the guise of security.
    He did horrendous damage to the USA that has increased the costs of doing business and the effectiveness of American policy. It was unnecessary, as the man could have gone another way.

  3. #33
    Light△Bender

    grip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    ☚ ☛
    Last Seen
    07-10-17 @ 05:53 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,138
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Actually it does. All our SIGINT methods and technology have been "burned". It's back to square one. In the meantime, Russia now has proven that it has the ability to achieve
    strategic surprise against the United States, meaning that probably many other entities can as well. Because our collection is now useless.


    What Snowden did wasn't like publishing the name of the one agent who kills an American citizen. What he did was the equivalent of publishing the actual name of every single American agent out there in order to also publish the name of one agent who kills an American citizen.
    You don't know that, unless Mike Rogers gave you clearance.




    that's nice. I myself think that society would be better off and more moral without all those abortions. I am therefore morally correct in blowing up abortion clinics full of people, right?

    OR, we can have Rule of Law in place of anarchy where every man feels the right to impose his beliefs over others.
    You have a duty and obligation to follow your own conscience, if you don't then you're wrong.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  4. #34
    Student pogomutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    colorado remote
    Last Seen
    05-04-14 @ 01:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    182

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Maybe Russia will name a national forest after him.

  5. #35
    Sage
    DA60's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Where I am now
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,207

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    To me the question is irrelevant. He is a criminal, and should be treated as such. He, based on what we know(and as always this is somewhat subject to revision if new facts come in), broke some very specific laws and should be prosecuted for such if we can ever get him in our custody. Whether you want to call him a traitor or not does not really matter, at least to me, but our laws do matter.
    Nonsense...there are TONS of ridiculous laws.

    So, by your standard, 'blacks' that went against racist laws in history were nothing more then law breakers and criminals. Same with women and other minorities. The same with Jews in Nazi Germany and on and on.

    Anyone tha blindly follows EVERY law - regardless of it's morality - is a spineless, government-brainwashed minion in my book. I only follow the laws that I feel are just (or are not worth the hassle for breaking them).

    Snowden appears to have broken the laws of America for the greater good.

    Sure, he broke the law...but he made the world a noticeably better place for it...even if most of the spineless minions of the world are too blind to see it.

    He is a hero and I hope others in similar positions have the courage to do EXACTLY what he did...again and again.


    And those of you 'government brainwashed minions' disagree with me...guess how much I care?

    When you take your blinders off and grow spines (on this issue) then I might spend time debating it with you.
    But with closed-minded, faceless nobodies who obey laws no matter how harmful they are...PASS...I have more important things to do...like organize my sock drawer (in other words, everything else is more important).

    On this subject; you are wrong, I am right...and if you are too blind to see it...tough.
    Last edited by DA60; 04-26-14 at 01:02 AM.
    'What kind of sick and twisted toy factory is this?'
    'We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away.'
    "Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool."

  6. #36
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    56,236

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    You don't know that, unless Mike Rogers gave you clearance.
    Russia achieved strategic surprise in pushing into Crimea. This isn't exactly a secret.

    Here’s just a partial list of Snowden’s leaks that have little or nothing to do with domestic surveillance of Americans:

    The classified portions of the U.S. intelligence budget, detailing how much we spend and where on efforts to spy on terror groups and foreign states, doesn’t deal with Americans’ privacy. This leak revealed the intelligence community’s self-assessment in 50 major areas of counterterrorism, and that “blank spots include questions about the security of Pakistan’s nuclear components when they are being transported, the capabilities of China’s next-generation fighter aircraft, and how Russia’s government leaders are likely to respond to ‘potentially destabilizing events in Moscow, such as large protests and terrorist attacks.’” The Pakistani, Chinese, and Russian intelligence agencies surely appreciate the status report.

    Our cyber-warfare capabilities and targets don’t deal with Americans’ privacy. The revelation that the U.S. launched 231 cyber-attacks against “top-priority targets, which former officials say includes adversaries such as Iran, Russia, China and North Korea and activities such as nuclear proliferation” in 2011 has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    The extent and methods of our spying on China have nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    British surveillance of South African and Turkish diplomats has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    The NSA’s successful interceptions of communications of Russian President Dimitri Medvedev has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy. This is not a scandal; it is literally the NSA’s job, and now the Russians have a better idea of what messages were intercepted and when.

    Revealing NSA intercepts and CIA stations in Latin America — again, nothing to do with U.S. citizens.

    Revealing a U.K. secret internet-monitoring station in the Middle East — nothing to do with U.S. citizens.

    The extent and range of NSA communications monitoring in India. . . .

    The fact that the United States has “ramped up its surveillance of Pakistan’s nuclear arms,” has “previously undisclosed concerns about biological and chemical sites there,” and details of “efforts to assess the loyalties of counterterrorism sources recruited by the CIA” . . .

    The U.S.’s spying on Al-Jazeera’s internal communication system. . . .

    What we know about al-Qaeda efforts to hack our drones. . . .

    The NSA’s ability to intercept the e-mail of al-Qaeda operative Hassan Ghul. . . .

    The NSA’s ability to read the e-mail of the Mexican president. . . .

    The U.S.’s electronic intercepts of communications to French consulates and embassies in New York and Washington. . . .

    The existence of NSA surveillance teams in 80 U.S. embassies around the globe . . .

    NSA’s spying on OPEC . . .

    NSA’s collecting data on the porn habits of Muslim extremist leaders in order to discredit them . . .

    . . . none of these stories have much of a tie to Americans’ privacy....

    You have a duty and obligation to follow your own conscience, if you don't then you're wrong.
    If so, then you also have a duty and and obligation to withstand the consequences of your actions when you choose the path of civil disobedience. You can't write the Letter until you are willing to go to the Birmingham Jail. For Snowden to offer up the defense that he felt morally obligated to engage in treason does not make him any less a traitor, and that he wasn't willing to actually go through with the hard, icky part indicates he's a bit more about himself.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  7. #37
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:26 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    91,383
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Nonsense...there are TONS of ridiculous laws.

    So, by your standard, 'blacks' that went against racist laws in history were nothing more then law breakers and criminals. Same with women and other minorities. The same with Jews in Nazi Germany and on and on.

    Anyone tha blindly follows EVERY law - regardless of it's morality - is a spineless. government-brainwashed minion in my book. I only follow the laws that I feel are just (or are not worth the hassle for breaking them).

    Snowden appears to have broken the laws of America for the greater good.

    Sure, he broke the law...but he made the world a noticeably better place for it...even if most of the spineless minions of the world are too blind to see it.

    He is a hero and I hope others in similar positions have the courage to do EXACTLY what he did...again and again.
    Are you honestly trying to suggest that laws covering classified materials and espionage are ridiculous?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  8. #38
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    56,236

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Are you honestly trying to suggest that laws covering classified materials and espionage are ridiculous?
    I've seen people devolve to that argument a couple of times in the Snowden threads.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  9. #39
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:26 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    91,383
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I've seen people devolve to that argument a couple of times in the Snowden threads.
    It was the only argument in amongst the straw men that actually addressed what I said. It is a painfully stupid argument, but that is not uncommon.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  10. #40
    Light△Bender

    grip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    ☚ ☛
    Last Seen
    07-10-17 @ 05:53 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,138
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Russia achieved strategic surprise in pushing into Crimea. This isn't exactly a secret.

    Here’s just a partial list of Snowden’s leaks that have little or nothing to do with domestic surveillance of Americans:

    The classified portions of the U.S. intelligence budget, detailing how much we spend and where on efforts to spy on terror groups and foreign states, doesn’t deal with Americans’ privacy. This leak revealed the intelligence community’s self-assessment in 50 major areas of counterterrorism, and that “blank spots include questions about the security of Pakistan’s nuclear components when they are being transported, the capabilities of China’s next-generation fighter aircraft, and how Russia’s government leaders are likely to respond to ‘potentially destabilizing events in Moscow, such as large protests and terrorist attacks.’” The Pakistani, Chinese, and Russian intelligence agencies surely appreciate the status report.

    Our cyber-warfare capabilities and targets don’t deal with Americans’ privacy. The revelation that the U.S. launched 231 cyber-attacks against “top-priority targets, which former officials say includes adversaries such as Iran, Russia, China and North Korea and activities such as nuclear proliferation” in 2011 has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    The extent and methods of our spying on China have nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    British surveillance of South African and Turkish diplomats has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    The NSA’s successful interceptions of communications of Russian President Dimitri Medvedev has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy. This is not a scandal; it is literally the NSA’s job, and now the Russians have a better idea of what messages were intercepted and when.

    Revealing NSA intercepts and CIA stations in Latin America — again, nothing to do with U.S. citizens.

    Revealing a U.K. secret internet-monitoring station in the Middle East — nothing to do with U.S. citizens.

    The extent and range of NSA communications monitoring in India. . . .

    The fact that the United States has “ramped up its surveillance of Pakistan’s nuclear arms,” has “previously undisclosed concerns about biological and chemical sites there,” and details of “efforts to assess the loyalties of counterterrorism sources recruited by the CIA” . . .

    The U.S.’s spying on Al-Jazeera’s internal communication system. . . .

    What we know about al-Qaeda efforts to hack our drones. . . .

    The NSA’s ability to intercept the e-mail of al-Qaeda operative Hassan Ghul. . . .

    The NSA’s ability to read the e-mail of the Mexican president. . . .

    The U.S.’s electronic intercepts of communications to French consulates and embassies in New York and Washington. . . .

    The existence of NSA surveillance teams in 80 U.S. embassies around the globe . . .

    NSA’s spying on OPEC . . .

    NSA’s collecting data on the porn habits of Muslim extremist leaders in order to discredit them . . .

    . . . none of these stories have much of a tie to Americans’ privacy....
    The US military and Intelligence agencies are one big pain in the ass to other countries. We so overly dominate everyone it's obnoxious. They didn't have the right to tap our allies leaders cells.

    All you're doing is re-pasting a bunch of stuff you don't even personally know is true. I said I was in the middle and that he did some things the wrong way.

    We have satellites that the CIA can spot the eye color of a person when positioned. And I'm sure they use surveillance techniques that Snowden has no idea about.



    If so, then you also have a duty and and obligation to withstand the consequences of your actions when you choose the path of civil disobedience. You can't write the Letter until you are willing to go to the Birmingham Jail. For Snowden to offer up the defense that he felt morally obligated to engage in treason does not make him any less a traitor, and that he wasn't willing to actually go through with the hard, icky part indicates he's a bit more about himself.
    If the soldiers at the death camps in Nazi Germany had refused to gas those Jewish captives, would they have been considered national traitors? Yes, probably, but they would've been heroes to the world. It's not a great comparison but it is about following human conscience.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Page 4 of 33 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •