View Poll Results: Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?

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  • yes

    45 45.92%
  • no

    53 54.08%
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Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #321
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    Jan 2011
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    10-10-15 @ 12:31 PM
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Sure. In the same conspiracy vein where Bush pulled off 9/11 and lizard like aliens secretly run Britain, it is possible that the US has entire agencies no one knows about staffed with upwards of a million people doing nothing but spying on their own populace. But it's not realistically plausible. Even the metadata program doesn't come close to collecting the scope or size of the content that nations such as North Korea, Egypt, China, etc. do on their populaces. It's the equivalent of claiming that Belgium actually has the largest military in the world. Sure, if they had that much of a black budget and kept the entire force hidden from the eyes of the world, I guess it's possible. But it's really idiotic hyperbole.
    Yes, your post was mostly ridiculous hyperbole. If you have to couch things in such ridiculous extremes that appeal to the emotional rather than the rational, your own point is revealed to have little merit.

    On Bush... He couldn't plan his way out of a wet paper bag. Cheney and Team B on the other hand... And consider this, if we have banks too big to fail, we certainly have a military industrial complex too big for peace." Maybe they didn't engineer it, but that level of incompetent response, from the time Cheney/Rumsfeld took office and stonewalled antiterrorism, to the phenomenal, cross agency, nearly total failed response on that day from everyone but the local cops and firefighters.

    Sure, if you look at the public faces and news clippings, Cheney/Rumsfeld sell one narrative... But their 40 year history together and what has been done behind the scenes (such as team B) tells a very different story, and just as factual if not more.

    Lizards in Britain, I have no idea what that's all about, so to me it seems as ridiculous to mention it as the fringe group you're quoting. Irrelevant.

    On dark agencies... GM, for example, employs about 50k people in the US. The IRS, 89k. Millions are not necessary, and indeed counter to the very idea of a dark agency. It's only going to be as big as the number of people that can be trusted. In fact, because none of this data requires manual processing by human hands to be collected, stored, searched, etc.. I would think you could do it with less than 10k people. So, I'm just pointing out that you've made yourself look as silly as though you were trying to... well, make look silly.

    On Snowden... It's not an uncommon human trait to want to do the right thing and go overboard in your efforts to do so.

    I think what Snowden did was to have a specific data target, domestic surveillance, and tried to pull as much supporting evidence as possible, and likely swept up a lot of stuff that was more sensitive to foreign surveillance than domestic. No one would be able vet that much while on the nail biting edge of being caught and needing to collect as much as possible and get the hell out quick.

    As a check and balance, he turned over, as in didn't keep any, to reporters and journalists he thought he could trust with instructions that they vet the info and publish with an eye to safeguarding legitimate state secrets. The goal was to out illegal state secrets.

    At this point nothing is in the public domain. No one but the journalists knows anything about it. The responsibility for releasing info on our foreign surveillance lies directly with the journalists who reviewed it.

    While, as some have said, these domestic programs had been known about in the public for years, a vigorous public debate about it did not exist. Nor was the depth and scope of the program outside of a handful of congressional committee reviewers. And without that, we are not a republican democracy, we are sheep.

    On on a personal note, I find invasion of privacy deeply repugnant.

  2. #322
    Montecresto's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    03-13-16 @ 10:59 PM

    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Anytime a low man on the totem pole breaks a law that exposes wrong doing by those at the top of the totem pole, those in position of power, committing crimes against the American population, compromising the constitutionally protected liberties of Americans, in my opinion, his lesser, singular crime trumps the greater crime against the whole. Sorry to the apologists, and those that value security over liberty, but no, he's NO TRAITOR!!!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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