View Poll Results: Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?

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Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Yes and that's where a traitorous douchebag belongs.
    What about those wiping their ass with the Constitution? Aren't they the traitorous douchbags?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  2. #22
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Laws criminalizing giving over sensitive national security secrets to foreign countries are illegal?
    If those security secrets violate the Constitution then no, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  3. #23
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    "He has had "a very comfortable life" that included a salary of roughly $200,000, a girlfriend with whom he shared a home in Hawaii, a stable career, and a family he loves. "I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building."...
    BS. The guy is a loser who managed to make himself famous. He's also not someone who suddenly realized what was going on around him was "wrong", he targeted the NSA because he wanted to steal secrets. He just happened to find some big ones as well as a whole bunch of regular ones, and those big ones have grabbed the headlines

    "I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal
    That's interesting. I wonder if he would be willing to explain that to the families of my Marines still over in Afghanistan when they ask him why he stripped away our ability to track Taliban movement and planning efforts.

    "....Snowden has been vague about when he decided to leak,
    Well, that's because he started making contact with reporters prior to starting his job, indicating that he had already decided to leak information.

    Snowden was not reckless about the type of documents he released and who he released them to. He released info detailing the privacy and other policy impacts of the government programs and exposed lies made to the public and congress. The people of the USA did not provide informed consent to losing their rights. He meets all the qualification for being a legitimate whistleblower.

    More info:
    What Edward Snowden Leaked Was Nothing Compared to What He Didn

    https://www.aclu.org/nsa-documents-search
    The bolded is both accurate and yet complete BS. Yes, he was deliberate about who he gave those documents to. Specifically, he deliberately gave them to people who would use them to endanger the lives of American citizens and the lives of our allies. We've already seen degradation in our ability to conduct combat operations against the Taliban in Afghanistan from this (hint, a reduction in our own combat efficiency means an increase in friendly casualties from where you would otherwise be) thanks to the Snowden revelations, the NSA, which is huge in our ability to provide indications and warnings of - oh - things like "Russia is about to invade Crimea" has been set back a decade or so, sending a massive wrecking ball into the DOD and IC's ability to anticipate threats and warn of impending attacks.

    Everyone focuses on the "Prism" program because that's what made the headlines. But that's not a friggin nth of what he stole, nor what he has given away. If all he had taken and made public were the metadata collection programs that covered American lines, THEN he could have made an argument that he was anything but a traitor. But - and this is important - that's not what he did. He took four laptops full of information, exposing our entire infrastructure, capability set, techniques, and methodologies. We haven't been laid this bare in a long time.

    Are government employees and contractors ethically bound to protect government lies and lawbreaking?
    Yes. It's called MILDEC and it's a doctrine common to every single security apparatus since the beginning of warfare.

    Are government employees ethically bound to protect government programs that were not approved through a legitimate democratic process?
    Yes. Virtually no IC programs are approved through the democratic process. They are approved instead by the people's representatives, chosen by them during regular elections. If collection programs were to be made public in order to become part of the democratic process, their usefulness would be destroyed. As an example, we also don't design our missile defense systems in a publicly accessible way - because that would be amazingly stupid and inherently damaging to national security.

    Could he have exposed the lawbreaking and lies any other way? If so, how?
    There was no lawbreaking involved here. However, if he had believed that there was, then there were a number of avenues available to him to act as a whistleblower without making classified collection programs, capabilities, and methodologies publicly available. Firstly, within his chain of command there is a reporting structure for whistleblowers. If he felt that that would have not been sufficient, there was a Navy IG office, a PACOM IG office, a DOD IG office and Congressional avenues all available to him. He availed himself of none of them.

    International law made through treaties ratified by the USA says that obeying an illegal order is not legal. Why doesn't that apply to this case?
    Because he was never given an illegal order. Firstly because SIGINT collection isn't illegal, and secondly because he wasn't a SIGINTer. He was a network administrator.

    Who is an example of a more legitimate whistleblower revealing secret government programs?
    I'd say the guy who outed the Pentagon Papers, demonstrating that we knew that slowly ramping up troops in Vietnam wouldn't produce success, but that we chose it anyway because it was more politically palatable. But that's just off the top of my head.

    How can it be a legitimate (representational) democracy if we have virtually no privacy and the government lies and withholds facts about major policy matters?
    I don't know, why don't you ask Google, which actually has all the data on you that you apparently think the NSA does?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  4. #24
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The ones in the NSA spying on Americans are the traitors and those who continue to allow the NSA to spy on Americans are the traitors.All those elected officials and military personnel violated their oath and ****ted on the constitution. Not the man who told the world what the NSA is doing. If it wasn't for Snowden anyone who said your government is spying on you was seen as being part of the tin foil hat crowd. I understand why he fled to Russia and tried to flee to China.They are not going to turn him and have the force to keep our government from coercing them into turning in Snowden.This idea that he should come back and face the consequences if he is doing the right thing is ****en moronic.Ideally no one should pay for doing the right. The same government that will spy on you can easily do anything to bury you.
    Sorry, unlike you, I won't heroize someone who renders aid to countries antagonistic to the US.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ovid View Post
    I feel that it is objective, so that makes it objective.

  5. #25
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What about those wiping their ass with the Constitution? Aren't they the traitorous douchbags?
    You were in the military. How do you feel about this guy exposing the programs that we used to anticipate Taliban movement and planning efforts, thus making it probable that more of your brothers and sisters will die?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  6. #26
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Sorry, unlike you, I won't heroize someone who renders aid to countries antagonistic to the US.
    Unlike you I won't heronize those who wiped their fecal covered asses with the Constitution under the guise of security.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  7. #27
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You were in the military. How do you feel about this guy exposing the programs that we used to anticipate Taliban movement and planning efforts, thus making it probable that more of your brothers and sisters will die?
    You were in the military what does the couple of lines in you oath of enlistment say?


    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;"
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  8. #28
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    I'm kind of in the middle on this, because nothing he did is really going to stop the Intelligence community from using technology to spy on whomever they choose. Now if there were evidence that the government were snatching US citizens out of the public for secret trials based on this surveillance, then it would be a different story.

    It can be argued he went about it the wrong way and broke laws, but could he have done it any different and been effective?

    He also said a couple things in his defense that are somewhat plausible.

    He said he believed in the principle declared at Nuremberg in 1945: "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring." Of course this was in reference to the soldiers involved in the Holocaust.

    And also, "I didn't want to change society," but "wanted to give society a chance to determine if it should change itself."

    Which too me he gained very little and actually lost on a personal level, and probably thought he was not being loyal to his government but was to his country. So, Catch 22 for him and harm to the intelligence gathering? I get the feeling, besides 'super hush-hush stuff', there's little China and Russia don't know about us.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  9. #29
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You were in the military what does the couple of lines in you oath of enlistment say?


    "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;"
    That's right it does. I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question. Why did your little "hero" feel the need to put your brothers lives in danger? What provision of the Constitution protects the Taliban from SIGINT collection?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  10. #30
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I know this may seem old news yet more is being released and a recent conversation with a friend does not view him this way.

    I followed this story lightly and would like to dig more and hear your thoughts.

    Here is an article that sums up my perspective so far. What do you think?

    Yes, Edward Snowden Is a Traitor | The Diplomat
    There can be no question about his being a traitor. Of course he is. He did a lot of damage and could have taken other measures that would have been less harmful. He should be wanted and 10 Millionen to anyone who delivers him.

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