View Poll Results: Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?

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Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #271
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    We've already discussed that. Let me try one more time. Snowden fled to Russia with every single military secret known to the NSA. The guy who welcomed him with open arms is a former KGB officer named Vladamir Putin. The KGB, when not arresting, torturing, and imprisoning their own citizens, was the primary Soviet instrument for gathering intelligence about the United States. You are either the most naïve individual on the planet, or you simply don't care.

    Again, your refusal to recognize this simple 2 + 2 = 4 equation speaks volumes about your political philosophy.
    That is not evidence that he gave anything to Russia. If the Russians seized his data it would have tainted their big PR win from allowing him into the county.

    He attempted to go to other places first, he did not go directly to Russia.

  2. #272
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Why do you continue to pretend this is only about the metadata program? Even if that never existed or was excused, Snowden is a traitor for everything else he exposed.
    Snowden never exposed anything that hurt the People. His actions only were detrimental to the govt., which is good.

  3. #273
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I would also like to add that does not mean I give a full stamp of approval to the NSA and have issues ...yet I think Snowden is a traitor based on the evidence.

    He damaged our relationships
    <snip>Quit lumping us all in w/the US govt. and its agenda. Thank you.

  4. #274
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    If he doesn't care about America then how the hell is he a traitor? Stupid ****ing question...

  5. #275
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    It shouldn't target individuals or groups without reasonable suspicion.
    Oh, but there is reasonable suspicion. We know a crime has been committed and that anybody could have done so. We must reduce the number of potential perpetrators. The first steps are easy. It cannot have been someone who was on the other side of the world at the time. It cannot have been anyone, who was in jail at the time....

    We know that there was a murder for instance. We believe it was committed within a time frame. All 2.000 mobiles within a range are possible perps and all outside are much less ie not totally excluded but less somewhat probable. Checking them out is albeit a very simple case of data mining. Though most of the thousand persons are certainly innocent the data should be checked. The same in a somewhat more complicated context is true for political bribes, drug trafficking, theft, insider trading ect, ect, ect. In all of these cases the data used to eliminate the innocent and narrow down the number of suspects is essentially the same. Only more of it and of greater difficulty to manage.

    Should we mind the streets being video monitored and on tape? I don't think so. I lived in an area where everything that happened on the streets was recorded and worked in a sector, where no phone call was allowed that was not taped. This is simple self protection. The crime rate in the streets collapsed and you could always prove that you what you had said. That is great.

    That is good, because the higher availability of data reduces the probability of false indictment. It makes it more probable that the right guy or gal will be captured and in shorter time.

    It also gives the citizenry a much better way of controlling the people it must give power over itself in order to do the jobs of government. We would never have been able to get Nixon, if actions in the White House were not continuously taped.

  6. #276
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Snowden never exposed anything that hurt the People. His actions only were detrimental to the govt., which is good.
    That's interesting. In today's political climate you won't see too many people openly cheering for the Taliban. How very "libertarian" of you.

    However, you are incorrect for the simple reason that you continue to see the federal government as some kind of monolithic entity at war with the U.S. Soldiers in Afghanistan aren't American citizens, they are the enemy, and cheers to Snowden if he gets them killed. Diplomats in Yemen aren't American citizens, they are the enemy and cheers to Snowden if he wrecks their efforts to utilize diplomacy to stave off conflict, or ruins our ability to head off threat streams against them.

    Congradulations. Yours is the logic of the Westboro Baptist Church. May your particular intellectual movement enjoy the same wide condemnation that they do.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-30-14 at 07:14 AM.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  7. #277
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Shooting back at people on a battlefield is legitimate and legal per international law.
    Nope. They have rights, after all, and just because they are threatening others doesn't mean we can just go in nilly willy and either listen to what they are saying to determine if they actually are a threat, or shoot at them, or anything crazy like that.

    seriously. The idea that we can't collect against North Korea is idiotic.

    Assassinations away from the battlefield are not. I don't have a problem with a handful of assassinations under very limited circumstances such as a strong evidence of an imminent threat and impossibility of capture without excessive collateral damage. Drones have made assassinations too easy and they are being used excessively. The blowback will probably be greater than any advantage.
    From what I understand, the available literature actually disputes that. Drones have had a great hand in (for example) sharply reducing the collateral damage you spoke of. The latest open source studies that I have seen suggested that collateral damage from drone strikes was about 1/5 of that of conventional military operations directed at similar targets. The mitigated combined effects radius of an AGM-114 is pretty tight.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  8. #278
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's interesting. In today's political climate you won't see too many people openly cheering for the Taliban. How very "libertarian" of you.

    However, you are incorrect for the simple reason that you continue to see the federal government as some kind of monolithic entity at war with the U.S. Soldiers in Afghanistan aren't American citizens, they are the enemy, and cheers to Snowden if he gets them killed. Diplomats in Yemen aren't American citizens, they are the enemy and cheers to Snowden if he wrecks their efforts to utilize diplomacy to stave off conflict, or ruins our
    And again, the misuse of the "our" pronoun.

    When are you going to learn to stop associating me and everyone else w/the actions/policies of the govt.?

    Words have meanings, including possessive pronouns--use the correct ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Congradulations. Yours is the logic of the Westboro Baptist Church.
    Nope, it's pure logic. To associate the People w/the govt. means that the govt. works for the people, which is false.

    The US govt., like most other plutocratic regimes, works against the People's interests in favor of their private/corporate sponsors. Therefore the govt. is not the people, but rather its adversary.

    The WBC is just a bunch of bigots, much like their populist GOP brethren running around screaming "Muslum" or "spic."

  9. #279
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Nope. They have rights, after all, and just because they are threatening others doesn't mean we can just go in nilly willy and either listen to what they are saying to determine if they actually are a threat, or shoot at them, or anything crazy like that.

    seriously. The idea that we can't collect against North Korea is idiotic.



    From what I understand, the available literature actually disputes that.
    TRANSLATION: "From what my government told me, it is false. And I trust my government even though it lied to me about WMDs in Iraq, about the scope of NSA spying, about terrorism in Libya, about health care, about. . ."

  10. #280
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Who would you expect to give you the information? The Russians? Snowden?

    The simple fact is that he fled to Russia with every military secret possessed by the NSA.
    The simple fact is there are Americans apparently naive enough to believe that the Russian govt. doesn't already know all those "secrets."

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