View Poll Results: Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?

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Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #221
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So in fact you do think that soldiers, school teachers, firefighters, etc., are all traitors who are at war with the people? Well why are you here whining about it on a stupid internet forum? Pick up a gun! You are at War!
    Last I heard, neither Snowden nor Assange used guns or tanks, and they scored major hits.

    War 101: not all attacks involve physical violence

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Amazing the response here. The most telling thing that I can see is the general mistrust of the US government shared by so many Americans at this point in history. Well, I'm part of that demographic. But to label Snowden some sort of whistle-blowing patriot? That's idiotic and anyone on the left with a triple digit IQ knows it. Snowden compromised many military secrets. Do you think he cared a wit about how many American lives he compromised with his actions? He's a traitor by every definition we've ever been taught to understand. So now he skulks in a Kremlin broom closet. What a hero. What a man of his convictions. Oh, and who do you suppose he turned all those military secrets over to? You don't think he got his bit of sanctuary for free?

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Last I heard, neither Snowden nor Assange used guns or tanks, and they scored major hits.
    Ah. So what are you doing then? Since you are "at War".

    War 101: not all attacks involve physical violence
    One of us is actually a certified information operations planner. Guess which one of us that is?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogomutt View Post
    Amazing the response here. The most telling thing that I can see is the general mistrust of the US government shared by so many Americans at this point in history. Well, I'm part of that demographic. But to label Snowden some sort of whistle-blowing patriot? That's idiotic and anyone on the left with a triple digit IQ knows it. Snowden compromised many military secrets.
    The US govt. doesn't have any military secrets--everyone w/noodle knows it does anything and everything it can, legally or illegally, to accomplish the objectives of its sponsors, w/out limits. All plutocracies work that way.

    Snowden only revealed what smart people already know--that the US govt. doesn't work for the people and that it's serial law breaker.

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    The US govt. doesn't have any military secrets


    Really? What is the maximum capability of the Patriot intercept system?

    Hint. You don't know it. Because it's a military secret. And it ought to be.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post


    Really? What is the maximum capability of the Patriot intercept system?
    Be specific. Do you means

    1) What's the maximum capability of the Patriot system that the US govt. wants others to believe (via military advertising)?

    2) What's the maximum capability of the Patriot system that its engineers are claiming (as part of classified material)?

    3) What's the maximum capability of the Patriot system that has been evidenced in actual war (i. e. the relevant statistic)? That one's easy It's near worthless, as seen during the 1991 Gulf War when about 30 Scuds (primitive unguided missiles) hit Israel and one destroyed an army barracks.

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Be specific. Do you means

    1) What's the maximum capability of the Patriot system that the US govt. wants others to believe (via military advertising)?

    2) What's the maximum capability of the Patriot system that its engineers are claiming (as part of classified material)?
    What is it's actual maximum range and engagement capacity.

    3) What's the maximum capability of the Patriot system that has been evidenced in actual war (i. e. the relevant statistic)? That one's easy It's near worthless, as seen during the 1991 Gulf War when about 30 Scuds (primitive unguided missiles) hit Israel and one destroyed an army barracks.
    That's nice. Apparently there have been no advances in computer science since 1991. That's good to know.


    However, you also (and, this is important) didn't answer the question.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  8. #228
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Even if exposing the NSA metadata program wasn't treason because the program was unconstitutional (I am not saying that it was), that would not mean that all the other things that he exposed would not be sufficient to make him a traitor. Benedict Arnold was a traitor, despite the fact that he successfully led U.S. troops. Against the British. Failure to break the law in once instance does not suffice to cover ones' breaking the law in another.



    That is simply incorrect. The IG and whistleblowing process are protected explicitly to encourage people who have concerns to bring them forward within the system by protecting them from retribution. Had Snowden used the IG system or the congressional reporting system the information would have remained secret and it would have nonetheless challenged the program and forced review by actors whose interests are against the power of those who instituted and ran the program. To respond to that by targeting Snowden, on the other hand, would have convinced the tens of thousands of people with access to our nations top secret information that they would be better off going to the press rather than attempting to use the system in place. It would have been insanely self-destructive for the IC or the administration to target or prosecute anyone making an IG or congressional complaint. Additionally, Snowden would have been legally immune from prosecution.



    I want to point out what he has done because that is what determines whether or not he is a traitor. His actions determine that independent of what philosophy he claims.
    Your response is naive and uninformed. And until you understand the philosophy of the government wielding its power over the very people who give it to them, you'll not see the difference between a patriot and a traitor. As a military soldier are you told to follow all orders without question or to follow only the legal ones?

    "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

    What Snowden did was also naive and had no chance of changing anything but it was about the only way he could do it and survive. And though it was meant as a patriotic act, it was something that hurt the country and informed it's people about the government.

    Did you know the government was aware of the 2008 financial collapse months in advance? But there was nothing they could do but wait for it and react. I have no doubt that the POTUS, NSA, CIA, Military Intel and Mike Rogers, head of the Senate Intelligence Committee mean well towards the nation, they just can't do it anyway they see fit at the expense of it's citizens right to privacy.

    If all they were doing was recording all the info, then it's no problem. But you know damn well they're running it all thru programs, looking for keywords, otherwise it wouldn't make sense.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  9. #229
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Your response is naive and uninformed. And until you understand the philosophy of the government wielding its power over the very people who give it to them, you'll not see the difference between a patriot and a traitor. As a military soldier are you told to follow all orders without question or to follow only the legal ones?

    "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

    What Snowden did was also naive and had no chance of changing anything but it was about the only way he could do it and survive. And though it was meant as a patriotic act, it was something that hurt the country and informed it's people about the government.

    Did you know the government was aware of the 2008 financial collapse months in advance? But there was nothing they could do but wait for it and react. I have no doubt that the POTUS, NSA, CIA, Military Intel and Mike Rogers, head of the Senate Intelligence Committee mean well towards the nation, they just can't do it anyway they see fit at the expense of it's citizens right to privacy.

    If all they were doing was recording all the info, then it's no problem. But you know damn well they're running it all thru programs, looking for keywords, otherwise it wouldn't make sense.
    Why do you continue to pretend this is only about the metadata program? Even if that never existed or was excused, Snowden is a traitor for everything else he exposed.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  10. #230
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    The only traitors are those that committed the crimes of which Snowden released.

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