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Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #211
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    The definition of a traitor is one who works for the enemy. By that definition, Snowden was only a traitor once, when he worked for the US govt.
    Only if he was a citizen of a country with which we were at war at the time. The Federal Government is not our enemy, although people who think that have two choices: either A) demonstrate that they lack the courage of their convictions and instead of standing up and fighting their enemy, retreating to internet ranting or B) go start killing soldiers and politicians. Let us know which one you choose.

    However, he's since redeemed himself by leaving the enemy (the govt.) and joining us, which means he's no longer a traitor.
    Oh. So you are a member of the Russian government?

    But that's an interesting sentiment. Do you think that all of our soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen, firefighters, police, intelligence analysts, CBO statisticians, trash-collectors, etc., are traitors?

    The US govt. can lock up anyone it wants indefinitely without trial by labeling him/her an "enemy combatant." Laws are irrelevant.
    The IG process is created specifically to allow this sort of thing to flow up with no damage done to national security. People have not only used it repeatedly in sensitive situations, they have even used it directly against extremely powerful people within the DOD, and furthermore, they've won when doing so, because they used the system correctly. Had Snowden contacted any of the multiple IG chains or the congressional route available to him he would have been not only well outside the definition of enemy combatant (hint: enemies do harm, using the IG system to whistleblow is attempting to keep from doing harm), but he would have been immune to prosecution.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  2. #212
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No. YOU are saying stuff I agree with. Please now rant about how Snowden is a hero and the second coming of Thomas Jefferson because you hate the fact that the President personally reads all your emails. I just ate, and it's bothering me.




    For some issues it's left v right. And for some issues, it's common sense v crazy. This is just one of those.
    If the president reads my emails, he would be pretty bored. Here at DP, I operate under the assumption(based on zero evidence) that the admins can read my PMs. I hope they do. Beyond my talking about anime and manga with a couple people, discussing Japanese culture and places I would like to visit there(Akiba, so much), occasionally talking wrestling, there is nothing of interest.

    To me, this whole issue is about incorrect framing. It is not whether Snowden is a hero or villain. That is a value judgement. The question to me is whether we as a country can afford to not pursue every legal avenue to bring him to trial and prosecute him with the full weight of the law. To my mind we cannot. Security must be secure. That is a vital interest for the country, and I do kinda love my country. The information is now out there that Snowden released, and that does have to be examined and judgements made on that. Can't put Pandora back in the box as the saying goes, and it is an important discussion. I do think, based on the information, that improvements need to be made on legal oversight of covert ops and intelligence in general. That however in no way changes that security must be secure, and that as part of that, those who engage in espionage must be prosecuted.

    I find the idea that we should judge whether some one should be tried for crimes based on ideology and not the rule of law to be somewhat repellant. And further, I cannot understand how others are not equally repelled. Next time the Joe SixPack might not be some one who sees things as they do.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #213
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Uh, no. What I am saying is that the Russians are very good at signals intelligence, and do indeed have comparable structure, organizations, and capabilities, and that ours are (well, were) simply better.
    I agree--ours, i. e. we the People have better capabilities at our disposal.

    The US govt., OTOH, runs second place to the FSB. Always has--during the Cold War, the KGB consistently outgunned the CIA and NSA on intelligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No. We The People do not have much of a cyber network operations capability at all,
    WRONG. Ever heard of Wikileaks?

    Furthermore, any software engineer worth his/her salt could develop a crude system transporting data using strong encryption over a steganographic transport layer, using publicly available information or software, given only a few months of work. Such a system would very easily circumvent the NSA's spying capabilities (the NSA can't break strong encryption).

    And many--notably organized criminal organizations, drug cartels, and even hedge funds--have already done so and currently use the systems.

    If it weren't for such systems, then mass insider trading--a bedrock of Wall St.--would be impossible. You apparently don't understand computer science and/or steganography or encryption.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and are, in fact, extremely vulnerable. The U.S. Government has(had) an excellent offensive capability, and has(had) a moderate defensive capability.
    Yep, it's so "good" that it outsources its intelligence technology to contractors that hire workers that can very easily jump ship and spill the beans

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    One does not have to be dumb in order not to know things. For example, our intelligence communities
    You're confusing "our" (i. e. We the People) w/the US govt.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    have many very brilliant people (and so do the Russians) who are dedicated to keeping secrets secret. The idea that the FSB must already know all of our most closely held secrets just because, well, just because they are a spy agency is ludicrous. Existence does not mean omniscience.
    The actions of the NSA that Snowden revealed were nothing new. IN fact, the UK Guardian reported on those exact same revelations months before Snowden revealed them.

    Even otherwise, it's ultimate in naive to assume that one's govt. (which works for powerful institutions within the private sector) doesn't attempt to do everything it can to spy on everything and anything, legally or illegally.

    Simply stated, anyone who has power will abuse it. The End.

  4. #214
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    If the president reads my emails, he would be pretty bored. Here at DP, I operate under the assumption(based on zero evidence) that the admins can read my PMs. I hope they do. Beyond my talking about anime and manga with a couple people, discussing Japanese culture and places I would like to visit there(Akiba, so much), occasionally talking wrestling, there is nothing of interest.

    To me, this whole issue is about incorrect framing. It is not whether Snowden is a hero or villain. That is a value judgement. The question to me is whether we as a country can afford to not pursue every legal avenue to bring him to trial and prosecute him with the full weight of the law. To my mind we cannot. Security must be secure. That is a vital interest for the country, and I do kinda love my country. The information is now out there that Snowden released, and that does have to be examined and judgements made on that. Can't put Pandora back in the box as the saying goes, and it is an important discussion. I do think, based on the information, that improvements need to be made on legal oversight of covert ops and intelligence in general. That however in no way changes that security must be secure, and that as part of that, those who engage in espionage must be prosecuted.

    I find the idea that we should judge whether some one should be tried for crimes based on ideology and not the rule of law to be somewhat repellant. And further, I cannot understand how others are not equally repelled. Next time the Joe SixPack might not be some one who sees things as they do.
    Bingo. What I find most entertaining about that aspect is, the very defense that they are setting up (the legalization of the concept of every individual a slave to his conscience) in order to defend Snowden also removes their ability to criticize anyone who put the programs he exposed into place. They are, after all, only doing what they feel they must.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    If the president reads my emails, he would be pretty bored. Here at DP, I operate under the assumption(based on zero evidence) that the admins can read my PMs. I hope they do. Beyond my talking about anime and manga with a couple people, discussing Japanese culture and places I would like to visit there(Akiba, so much), occasionally talking wrestling, there is nothing of interest.

    To me, this whole issue is about incorrect framing. It is not whether Snowden is a hero or villain. That is a value judgement. The question to me is whether we as a country can afford to not pursue every legal avenue to bring him to trial and prosecute him with the full weight of the law. To my mind we cannot. Security must be secure. That is a vital interest for the country, and I do kinda love my country.
    Sounds like you love your govt., as opposed to your country.

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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Only if he was a citizen of a country with which we were at war at the time.
    You have a pronoun problem--you keep using the word "our" to refer to the US govt.. The word "our" refers to us, we (i. e. the People).

    If you want to refer to the US govt., you should say "they" or "it."

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The Federal Government is not our enemy, although people who think that have two choices: either A) demonstrate that they lack the courage of their convictions and instead of standing up and fighting their enemy, retreating to internet ranting or B) go start killing soldiers and politicians. Let us know which one you choose.
    Killing pols would be bad strategy, and it's not necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Oh. So you are a member of the Russian government?

    But that's an interesting sentiment. Do you think that all of our soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen, firefighters, police, intelligence analysts, CBO statisticians, trash-collectors, etc., are traitors?
    WE don't have any soldiers, marines, or police. Only the US govt. has those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The IG process is created specifically to allow this sort of thing
    It's theoretically impossible for organizations w/an agenda (i. e. the NSA) to police themselves.

  7. #217
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    I agree--ours, i. e. we the People have better capabilities at our disposal.
    I am here to tell you you are simply incorrect. The U.S. citizenry does not have the computer network attack or computer network defense capability set of the United States Government, any more than We The People have a better air force, navy, or better tank units.

    The US govt., OTOH, runs second place to the FSB. Always has--during the Cold War, the KGB consistently outgunned the CIA and NSA on intelligence.
    No. The KGB often outpaced the CIA and our CI capability sets because they were on an even playing field in HUMINT, which is the CIA's bailwick. Their SIGINT wins were the result of their HUMINT victories.

    WRONG. Ever heard of Wikileaks?
    .... :facepalm: Wikileaks is not a cyber network operation, nor an organization capable of launching one. Anonymous is such an organization, but lacks the resources and advanced techniques available to state actors. Anonymous is probably not even as good at CNO as Iran.

    Furthermore, any software engineer worth his/her salt could develop a crude system transporting data using strong encryption over a steganographic transport layer, using publicly available information or software, given only a few months of work. Such a system would very easily circumvent the NSA's spying capabilities (the NSA can't break strong encryption).
    Okay. But I find it interesting that you A) insist it is so easy to avoid any decryption cracking and B) believe apparently that no one in the U.S. government is aware of that fact, and that the FSB is therefore able to collect on everything we do

    And many--notably organized criminal organizations, drug cartels, and even hedge funds--have already done so and currently use the systems.
    Many criminal organizations do indeed use cyber.

    If it weren't for such systems, then mass insider trading--a bedrock of Wall St.--would be impossible. You apparently don't understand computer science and/or steganography or encryption.
    I don't pretend to be a computer scientist. However, I do understand the IC a bit.

    Yep, it's so "good" that it outsources its intelligence technology to contractors that hire workers that can very easily jump ship and spill the beans
    You are confusing "business structure" with "capability set". That's like saying "the Florida Seminoles may have won the BSC championship, but they aren't a very good football team because their waterboy up and quit". The NSA is indeed the best in the world at what it does.

    You're confusing "our" (i. e. We the People) w/the US govt.
    The U.S. government belongs to us. It is ours. You own it. If it's broken, it's your fault. They are our military. Our Intelligence Community. Ours.

    The actions of the NSA that Snowden revealed were nothing new.
    Interesting. I wonder why all the fuss then

    IN fact, the UK Guardian reported on those exact same revelations months before Snowden revealed them.
    Given that Snowden was in talks with those reporters prior to his even taking employment with Booz Allen, that's not terribly surprising.

    Even otherwise, it's ultimate in naive to assume that one's govt. (which works for powerful institutions within the private sector) doesn't attempt to do everything it can to spy on everything and anything, legally or illegally.
    That is incorrect - in fact, I would label that belief naive, because it seems to work from the presumption that government has unlimited resources. For example, the IC does not collect on our eating habits much, simply because it would represent a waste of resources that could be better employed elsewhere.

    Simply stated, anyone who has power will abuse it. The End.
    True. That is why we have divided government, and divide even the branches of government via our factions.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  8. #218
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by solletica View Post
    Sounds like you love your govt., as opposed to your country.
    So in fact you do think that soldiers, school teachers, firefighters, etc., are all traitors who are at war with the people? Well why are you here whining about it on a stupid internet forum? Pick up a gun! You are at War!
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  9. #219
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Dude. Whether or not they broke the Constitution (they didn't, as described in the Supreme Court Case United States v Graham) has absolutely zero impact on whether or not Snowden is a traitor for releasing all that he has. Opposition to the Metadata program does not require support of a guy who happens to release it along with releasing a whole bunch of other stuff as well.

    Spied on everyone without authorization? Firstly, the metadata program didn't cover the communications of all U.S. citizens, secondly, it didn't collect content or even individually identifying information, and thirdly, it was authorized by all three branches of government and both political parties, not once, but repeatedly. There is literally no greater level of authorization that a collection program can receive.


    Do you intend to defend Snowden putting our troops in Afghanistan in harms way by releasing the methods by which we collect against the Taliban?

    Do you intend to defend Snowden putting our national security at risk by releasing how we conduct cyber network operations against China?

    Do you intend to defend Snowden releasing how we collect against North Korea? How about Russia? Hey, has Russia done anything lately that really, really, surprised our executive branch? Gosh, if so, you don't think that our sudden inability to collect against them has anything to do with that surprise, a lack of situational awareness leading to inept policy decisions, do you?


    You want to argue against the metadata program, I get that. I'm sympathetic to the argument (simply because something might be Constitutional does not make it right). But that's a separate question from whether or not Snowden is a traitor. His actions define that, not whether or not you oppose one of the many collection programs that he's exposed.
    There's no denying Snowden hurt this countries intel gathering ability. I never argued those facts but only questioned, whether his methods of exposing the invasion of privacy by the intel community was constitutionally legal? Constitutional law trumps all other laws and rules, period. If what he did supported the nation's highest legal document, then he did no traitoring, they did. They would've of killed, interred and done anything possible to stop him or anyone, not because of the sensitive nature of the info but because it was wrong.

    You want to Google a bunch of internet horse**** about all his misdeeds, point by point, rather than discuss the philosophy and morality of what he's done.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  10. #220
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    There's no denying Snowden hurt this countries intel gathering ability. I never argued those facts but only questioned, whether his methods of exposing the invasion of privacy by the intel community was constitutionally legal? Constitutional law trumps all other laws and rules, period. If what he did supported the nation's highest legal document, then he did no traitoring, they did.
    Even if exposing the NSA metadata program wasn't treason because the program was unconstitutional (I am not saying that it was), that would not mean that all the other things that he exposed would not be sufficient to make him a traitor. Benedict Arnold was a traitor, despite the fact that he successfully led U.S. troops. Against the British. Failure to break the law in once instance does not suffice to cover ones' breaking the law in another.

    They would've of killed, interred and done anything possible to stop him or anyone, not because of the sensitive nature of the info but because it was wrong.
    That is simply incorrect. The IG and whistleblowing process are protected explicitly to encourage people who have concerns to bring them forward within the system by protecting them from retribution. Had Snowden used the IG system or the congressional reporting system the information would have remained secret and it would have nonetheless challenged the program and forced review by actors whose interests are against the power of those who instituted and ran the program. To respond to that by targeting Snowden, on the other hand, would have convinced the tens of thousands of people with access to our nations top secret information that they would be better off going to the press rather than attempting to use the system in place. It would have been insanely self-destructive for the IC or the administration to target or prosecute anyone making an IG or congressional complaint. Additionally, Snowden would have been legally immune from prosecution.

    You want to Google a bunch of internet horse**** about all his misdeeds, point by point, rather than discuss the philosophy and morality of what he's done.
    I want to point out what he has done because that is what determines whether or not he is a traitor. His actions determine that independent of what philosophy he claims.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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