View Poll Results: Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?

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    45 45.92%
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Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #161
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Zero to Godwin in 40 posts.
    The international laws that says it is illegal to obey an illegal order were inspired by revulsion at what happened in Nazi Germany. Those events were extreme, but far from unique, and Nazi tactics such as incarceration without trial, torture of suspects, and genocidal mass killings are still used today, just on a smaller scale. The comparison is completely relevant to this dicussion.

  2. #162
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    And then promptly turned national security information over to the Russians in return for asylum.
    There is no evidence that he has given any information to anyone but journalists. Russia was sufficviently compensated for taking him in by the positive PR it generated for them.

  3. #163
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Condemning Snowden requires holding these beliefs:

    • Allowing our government to obtain and use the ability to spy on virtually anyone, anywhere at anytime benefits us citizens.
    • We can trust the government to use their top secret programs only for our protection.
    • We can trust the government to harm other people only when there is a known threat to our safety and there is no viable alternative.
    • The interests of the politicians, bureaucrats, military personnel, contractors and vendors that control our intelligence and security apparatus are exactly the same as the public's interests.
    • The USA should have the ability to control the political decisions made by every other nation.

  4. #164
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Absolutely I can blame him and I do. Not finding the argument that avoiding potential punishment is justification for being a sell out particularly compelling.
    There is no requirement that whistleblowers be martyrs also. There is no evidence he gave information to anyone but journalists. or that he was paid for any information. He lost almost everything and gained nothing personally.

  5. #165
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    None of which is relevant to whether be broke the law, or whether that law is constitutional. Nowhere in the Espionage Act does it say you can deliver secrets to those who should not have access if you somehow feel justified to do so.
    So what? The question isn't whether he broke any laws, the question is whether he had a sufficiently good reason to do it.

  6. #166
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Well, sometimes one needs to read beyond the founders' scripture, as good as that is. This here might interest you:

    "18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
    Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

    18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason | LII / Legal Information Institute

    Now you might not like that or want it changed. But it stands and is applicable as of this time.
    By that definition, Snowden is not a traitor.

  7. #167
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Ever since this crap with Ukraine started, I've believed Snowden was involved in giving up NATO secrets.
    I don't like Rogers when he is political, such as his marbles to chess comment.
    But when a House Chair, the highest meaninful office in the House on a specific subject speaks, I listen .
    There were no surprises in the Ukraine and your 'beliefs' are just speculation.

    The House Chair, if fully informed, was complicit with the practices that Snowden considered unconstitutional and immoral. He has an interest in hiding that information. His opinion is not significant.

  8. #168
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    I'm glad Snowden exposed the corrupt US Government illegal activities.

    On Dec. 16, in a lawsuit that could not have gone forward without the disclosures made possible by Snowden, U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon described the NSA’s capabilities as “almost Orwellian” and said its bulk collection of U.S. domestic telephone records was probably unconstitutional.
    He named the chairmen of the Senate and House intelligence committees.

    “Dianne Feinstein elected me when she asked softball questions” in committee hearings, he said. “Mike Rogers elected me when he kept these programs hidden. . . . The FISA court elected me when they decided to legislate from the bench on things that were far beyond the mandate of what that court was ever intended to do. The system failed comprehensively, and each level of oversight, each level of responsibility that should have addressed this
    Beginning in October 2012, he said, he brought his misgivings to two superiors in the NSA’s Technology Directorate and two more in the NSA Threat Operations Center’s regional base in Hawaii. For each of them, and 15 other co-workers, Snowden said he opened a data query tool called BOUNDLESSINFORMANT, which used color-coded “heat maps” to depict the volume of data ingested by NSA taps.

    His colleagues were often “astonished to learn we are collecting more in the United States on Americans than we are on Russians in Russia,” he said. Many of them were troubled, he said, and several said they did not want to know any more.
    Each year, NSA systems collected hundreds of millions of e-mail address books, hundreds of billions of cellphone location records and trillions of domestic call logs.

    Most of that data, by definition and intent, belonged to ordinary people suspected of nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

  9. #169
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    They are seperate issues. Go back and read my premise in my first post. It is that he is a criminal. He broke the law. Thinking you have a good excuse does not change that. Every one has a good excuse for why they break the law. If we ignore the law, if we do not enforce it when not convenient, the end result is very negative.
    The end result of enough people refusing to obey bad laws is those laws being repealed or ignored.


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    420 event
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 04-26-14 at 05:47 PM.

  10. #170
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Here's a list of known traitors.

    John Adams
    George Washington
    Thomas Jefferson
    James Madison
    Ben Franklin





    He's in good company.

    When your country engages in unconscionable acts, what's a man of conscience to do?
    "Half full or half empty doesn't matter. What matters is, you've only got half a glass...so what are you going to do about it?" - Me
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