View Poll Results: Read article ... Do you agree he is a traitor or disagree?

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Thread: Is Snowden a traitor?

  1. #101
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Well, sometimes one needs to read beyond the founders' scripture, as good as that is. This here might interest you:

    "18 U.S. Code 2381 - Treason
    Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

    18 U.S. Code 2381 - Treason | LII / Legal Information Institute

    Now you might not like that or want it changed. But it stands and is applicable as of this time.
    why do you people always give me federal law?

    constructional law is higher law.

    treason is in the constitution, the founders spell out what it is.....yet I continue to get presented with federal law as if it is superior to constitutional law.


    " levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort ".....in the time of war the founders say aug 20 1787

  2. #102
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Snowden is a patriot. The US Declaration of Independence states that governments that deny the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should be abolished or altered. I believe, like him, that in the past few decades the US government had become tyrannical, with unjust laws and taxation and must be called upon to justify itself or be abolished.

  3. #103
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Snowden is a patriot. The US Declaration of Independence states that governments that deny the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness should be abolished or altered. I believe, like him, that in the past few decades the US government had become tyrannical, with unjust laws and taxation and must be called upon to justify itself or be abolished.
    I agree completely.

  4. #104
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    I did not say it did.... however you seem to want to focus on federal law, while I am concern more with constitutional law, which is higher law.

    while giving information to a foreign power in not in the interest of the American people, violating constitutional law, is a more serous threat to the American people.

    it would be nice to see snowden able to in court viewed by the public, and state what he knows which he considers unconstitutional, only those things which he would deem within constitution law, would by kept away from the public.

    however I don't want snowden, thrown in jail never to see or hear from him again, with a trial conducted in secret, I want the story, not what the government has to tell us.
    They are seperate issues. Go back and read my premise in my first post. It is that he is a criminal. He broke the law. Thinking you have a good excuse does not change that. Every one has a good excuse for why they break the law. If we ignore the law, if we do not enforce it when not convenient, the end result is very negative.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #105
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    They are seperate issues. Go back and read my premise in my first post. It is that he is a criminal. He broke the law. Thinking you have a good excuse does not change that. Every one has a good excuse for why they break the law. If we ignore the law, if we do not enforce it when not convenient, the end result is very negative.
    a good excuse?, what if you work for government, and the government swears you to silence on things they are doing, and you determine in your mind they are unconstitutional, ...who do you consult.....what do you do?

    do you continue to do things for the government that violate constitutional law? even though its a civic duty to say something, even though you know the people you are working for are suppose to preserve protect and defend the constitution and they are not doing it.....

    what is a person to do?

  6. #106
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    They are seperate issues. Go back and read my premise in my first post. It is that he is a criminal. He broke the law. Thinking you have a good excuse does not change that. Every one has a good excuse for why they break the law. If we ignore the law, if we do not enforce it when not convenient, the end result is very negative.
    He is NOT a criminal.

    'criminal (ˈkrɪmɪnəl)
    n
    1. (Law) a person charged with and convicted of crime'


    criminal - definition of criminal by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    He has not been convicted of anything yet (to my knowledge), so he is NOT a criminal.

  7. #107
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I agree completely.
    I disagree, though, not completely.

    But that doesn't seem to me to be the point. The damage done was not necessary and has harmed the country substantially. Had he published only such information for instance, that showed breeches of US citizens rights and broke US law, it would have still been doubtful, but it could have been argued that it was justified. As it stands, he has committed a crime that must be so harshly punished that nobody does it again.

    That is not saying that we do not have to create better procedure for whistle blowers to protect the citizenry against government's infringing their rights. Maybe we could take up, what we have learned from the SEC approach. But that needs doing well to avoid the confusion in people like Snowden's heads and to prevent heroization of criminals.
    Last edited by joG; 04-26-14 at 06:24 AM.

  8. #108
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I disagree, though, not completely.

    But that doesn't seem to me to be the point. The damage done was not necessary and has harmed the country substantially. Had he published only such information for instance, that showed breeches of US citizens rights and broke US law, it would have still been doubtful, but it could have been argued that it was justified. As it stands, he has committed a crime that must be so harshly punished that nobody does it again.

    That is not saying that we do not have to create better procedure for whistle blowers to protect the citizenry against government's infringing their rights. Maybe we could take up, what we have learned from the SEC approach. But that needs doing well to avoid the confusion in people like Snowden's heads and to prevent heroization of criminals.
    Well, I say he has helped America and the world...substantially.

    And the only proof (I assume) that you have that he has hurt it is the word of the government...which means ZIP to me.

    Ron Paul:

    'My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy.'

  9. #109
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Well, I say he has helped America and the world...substantially.

    And the only proof (I assume) that you have that he has hurt it is the word of the government...which means ZIP to me.

    Ron Paul:

    'My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy.'
    Don't be silly. I would never take the word of an interested party. And Paul's statement is about as naive as statements come. You certainly wouldn't want a provincial like that running foreign policy.

    PS: Paul also has a dog in the race and quoting him is like taking the government opinion at face value.

  10. #110
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    Re: Is Snowden a traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I disagree, though, not completely.

    But that doesn't seem to me to be the point. The damage done was not necessary and has harmed the country substantially. Had he published only such information for instance, that showed breeches of US citizens rights and broke US law, it would have still been doubtful, but it could have been argued that it was justified. As it stands, he has committed a crime that must be so harshly punished that nobody does it again.

    That is not saying that we do not have to create better procedure for whistle blowers to protect the citizenry against government's infringing their rights. Maybe we could take up, what we have learned from the SEC approach. But that needs doing well to avoid the confusion in people like Snowden's heads and to prevent heroization of criminals.
    Snowden isn't a criminal, as DA60 pointed out. Being a criminal requires being convicted in a court of law by his peers. (If I were on that jury I wouldn't convict if it meant tying up the jury for a year).

    Second, so you don't oppose whistle blowers you just oppose this specific one? Did you just not deem the information he offered us worthy enough?

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