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Thread: legislating morality

  1. #61
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Good. What is your point again? Mine is that human nature is biological in nature, and that morals and rights are human constructs....not biological in origin.

    And fortunately for you, I've forgotten what you didnt support with your argument because you deliberately avoided it. I'll let it go right now because I really dont care. I may go look for it later, for reference. But just you saying "I did!" doesnt not mean you actually did.
    Morals proceed from human nature, as demonstrated.

    You quoted my argument in post #43.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I as I said, it is historical fact that the German government intentionally killed people during the holocaust. The burden is on whoever is arguing for the holocaust not being objectively immoral to show sufficient cause, that's basic logic.

    And the immorality of the holocaust is also provable.

    Prove it. You cannot. Cause was sufficient to that govt at that time. As was prevailing 'morals.'

    Today most agree it was immoral, but not everyone agrees.

    This is the entire point of the thread....morality is subjective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Your failure to actually address my argument is noted.
    Your argument was addressed.
    It is wrong.
    Telling you that you haven't established any such thing. Is addressing your argument.

    And the following fully and succinctly addressed it.
    "All there is are actions, and interpretations of those actions. Those interpretations are all subjective."



    But since you don't seem to understand that lets address each statement to further show how wrong your statements are.



    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    You're starting with the premise that morality is a matter of subjective opinion. This is circular reasoning.
    No it isn't.
    Morality is a matter of subjective opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    And the immorality of the Holocaust can be proved:
    Only within a subjective framework.
    Such as what you believe is good/bad/evil. Belief make it subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    1. A thing is good insofar as it is in accordance with its nature (thus a good car is one which works properly, or a good pencil is one which writes well).
    What is good is subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    2. Free human acts are matters of morality.
    No they are not. That is a condition that you have placed on them. Others don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    3. Therefore an act which is against human nature is morally wrong.
    You can not have an act that is against human nature.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    4. It is against man's social nature to intentionally kill others without sufficient cause (since if it were, there would be a contradiction, as if such were right, then by doing this right thing a man would deprive others of their ability to do it to him, which would violate the fundamental equality of humans).
    No it is not against man's nature, social or otherwise..
    Man's nature is to kill that which he chooses for whatever sufficient reason he chooses.
    An insult still is enough to kill for in places around the globe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    5. The holocaust was intentional killings committed without sufficient cause.
    Wrong. They were intentional killings for cause. Which would be, being worthless Jews.
    Others, in their subjective views, believed that to be wrong, and in there framework (which is subjective) it was objectively wrong. But onlyy within the subjective framework.
    Outside of it, it is nothing more than an action.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Thus it is proved that the holocaust was immoral.

    Thus nothing. You haven't proved any such thing.
    And what you think you proved doesn't hold for the other side of the coin.
    Last edited by Excon; 04-24-14 at 04:27 PM.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    You know what I meant.

    You're starting with the premise that morality is a matter of subjective opinion. This is circular reasoning. And the immorality of the Holocaust can be proved:

    1. A thing is good insofar as it is in accordance with its nature (thus a good car is one which works properly, or a good pencil is one which writes well).

    2. Free human acts are matters of morality.

    3. Therefore an act which is against human nature is morally wrong.

    4. It is against man's social nature to intentionally kill others without sufficient cause (since if it were, there would be a contradiction, as if such were right, then by doing this right thing a man would deprive others of their ability to do it to him, which would violate the fundamental equality of humans).

    5. The holocaust was intentional killings committed without sufficient cause.

    Thus it is proved that the holocaust was immoral.
    I believe in objective morality, but I don't believe that humans are smart enough to say what is and isn't moral with 100% certainty. It's just like objective beauty. A woman might be more beautiful than another woman, but it's impossible to prove even when it's obvious. I believe that the holocaust was immoral and I believe that it's incredibly obvious, but it's impossible to prove.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Which laws are examples of people forcing their morals onto others?
    If by morality laws you mean the ten commandants, then certainly the thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness are three this nation adheres to and I suspect that all regardless of religion or the absent of religion agree should be enforced. The rest are subjective to one's beliefs or non-beliefs. The three I first mention, sure enough the government should be involved in and should enforce them strictly. The rest, government should not be involved in at all. They are up to the individual involved.
    This Reform Party member thinks it is high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first and their political party further down the line. But for way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Morals proceed from human nature, as demonstrated.

    You quoted my argument in post #43.

    LOL...and I have continually shown how everything in that claim, all the numbered items, were opinion, subjective. The fact that you keep saying you demonstrated anything wit that list as an answer is a waste of time, as it's the reference point I countered.

    And how did you demonstrate that morals proceed from human nature? That is a very generic statement...please be more specific.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I as I said, it is historical fact that the German government intentionally killed people during the holocaust. The burden is on whoever is arguing for the holocaust not being objectively immoral to show sufficient cause, that's basic logic.

    And the immorality of the holocaust is also provable.
    Note I’m one that believes it absolutely did happen, and absolutely believe it was a horrible, unjust, evil thing.

    But it’s definitely a subjective thing.

    You keep saying “sufficient cause”

    All “sufficient cause” means is essentially “enough to make it happen”.

    The intentional killings perpetrated during the holocaust occurred due to the desire of that nation’s leader to kill large groups of people he felt were genetically inferior in a quick and efficient manner.

    They had “sufficient cause” to happen.

    Now if you want to move the goal posts to “sufficient just cause” or “sufficient moral cause” you can…but then you’re just proving it’s a subjective thing, as “justice” and “morality” are in and of themselves subjective things.

    The holocaust happened because there was sufficient cause….the desire of Hitler for it to happen was more than sufficient enough to cause the holocaust to occur.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Your argument was addressed.
    It is wrong.
    Telling you that you haven't established any such thing. Is addressing your argument.

    And the following fully and succinctly addressed it.
    "All there is are actions, and interpretations of those actions. Those interpretations are all subjective."



    But since you don't seem to understand that lets address each statement to further show how wrong your statements are.




    No it isn't.
    Morality is a matter of subjective opinion.
    Only within a subjective framework.
    Such as what you believe is good/bad/evil. Belief make it subjective.


    What is good is subjective.


    No they are not. That is a condition that you have placed on them. Others don't.


    You can not have an act that is against human nature.


    No it is not against man's nature, social or otherwise..
    Man's nature is to kill that which he chooses for whatever sufficient reason he chooses.
    An insult still is enough to kill for in places around the globe.


    Wrong. They were intentional killings for cause. Which would be, being worthless Jews.
    Others, in their subjective views, believed that to be wrong, and in there framework (which is subjective) it was objectively wrong. But onlyy within the subjective framework.
    Outside of it, it is nothing more than an action.



    Thus nothing. You haven't proved any such thing.
    And what you think you proved doesn't hold for the other side of the coin.
    1. Demonstrate this.

    2. Demonstrate this.

    3. Demonstrate this.

    4. The burden is on the person killing to show sufficient reason.

    5. Thank you for actually attempting an argument. As to your argument, that they were worthless Jews, I would counter that the burden of proof remains on you to show why Jews are of less value than other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I believe in objective morality, but I don't believe that humans are smart enough to say what is and isn't moral with 100% certainty. It's just like objective beauty. A woman might be more beautiful than another woman, but it's impossible to prove even when it's obvious. I believe that the holocaust was immoral and I believe that it's incredibly obvious, but it's impossible to prove.
    How do you counter my argument?

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Note I’m one that believes it absolutely did happen, and absolutely believe it was a horrible, unjust, evil thing.

    But it’s definitely a subjective thing.

    You keep saying “sufficient cause”

    All “sufficient cause” means is essentially “enough to make it happen”.

    The intentional killings perpetrated during the holocaust occurred due to the desire of that nation’s leader to kill large groups of people he felt were genetically inferior in a quick and efficient manner.

    They had “sufficient cause” to happen.

    Now if you want to move the goal posts to “sufficient just cause” or “sufficient moral cause” you can…but then you’re just proving it’s a subjective thing, as “justice” and “morality” are in and of themselves subjective things.

    The holocaust happened because there was sufficient cause….the desire of Hitler for it to happen was more than sufficient enough to cause the holocaust to occur.
    By "sufficient cause" I meant sufficient cause to justify it.

    Justice and morality are not subjective, and the burden is on those arguing that it wasn't objectively immoral to show sufficient cause to justify it.

  10. #70
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    By "sufficient cause" I meant sufficient cause to justify it.

    Justice and morality are not subjective, and the burden is on those arguing that it wasn't objectively immoral to show sufficient cause to justify it.
    Justice is also subjective. That's why even when some laws are enforced and people are convicted, there is no actual justice.

    The law says that 10 yrs in prison is 'justice' for some murders, however the family of the persons killed often do not feel that that is justice.

    Some people would say that after accidentally running over someone in a crosswalk, and then the driver hits a telephone pole and dies...that that is justice. Some people would not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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