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Thread: legislating morality

  1. #211
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    It's a matter of degree. Which side does it more?
    Actually, it's a question of quality, not quantity

    Which side does it for reasons that are (more) consistent with the constitution, and that promote the general welfare while protecting people's rights?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  2. #212
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    You realize any opinion you have about what's right or wrong that's not based on something objective is based upon your subjective preferences: morality.
    No, something being subjective does not make it a matter of morals.



    Assuming they're not an orphan. The point is other systems could benefit the very poor better. Something they might think is more moral, as it were. Because protection private property isn't an objective truth: it's subjective with regards to what one owns. Your preference for it based on your personal morality.
    If they are an orphan, then the property of its' guardians.

    And again, I disagree with subjectiveness makes something a matter of morals.


    About what's right and wrong? Like what? We're not talking deciding on a flavor of ice cream.
    Again, I can favor a particular tax scheme, not because I think it's right and fair, but because it benefits me. I can favor that tax scheme, not because it benefits me directly, but because it's good for society as a whole which benefits me indirectly.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #213
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, something being subjective does not make it a matter of morals.
    Subjective about if it's "right" or "wrong" is.

    If they are an orphan, then the property of its' guardians.
    Orphanages rarely give their property to the children, but regardless: The point is other systems could benefit the very poor better. Something they might think is more moral, as it were. Because protection private property isn't an objective truth: it's subjective with regards to what one owns. Your preference for it based on your personal morality.

    And again, I disagree with subjectiveness makes something a matter of morals.
    And again, I never said it did. I said subjectivity about something being "right" or "wrong".

    Again, I can favor a particular tax scheme, not because I think it's right and fair, but because it benefits me. I can favor that tax scheme, not because it benefits me directly, but because it's good for society as a whole which benefits me indirectly.
    But that's about what's "right" or "wrong".
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    which are not based on morality
    so now were down to this: are too...is not...are too...is not. We disagree, I had the better argument, and that's ok. Thanks for the discussion.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well if you want the people who apply their own personal sense of right and wrong, i.e. morality, in all things, including the enviroment, to write the laws you will be required to live by in your country, go for it. But let me know where that is because I may not want to come even visit, much less live there.
    What, you don't like trees now? In this country we elect our leaders, so if you don't like or trust someone to legislate fairly, then don't vote for them...or vote them out. Or you can organize, sign a petition, lobby and protest to change the laws. But I suggest you learn what a natural law is, first, otherwise you're just going to be spinning your wheels.



    Any day of the week, I will vote for a legal system based on the principle of unalienable rights ahead of anybody dictating to me what is or is not moral.
    Murder is not moral. So whaddya gonna do now, go out and murder someone because you don't like any moral laws?

    Having sex with a child is not moral. Torturing animals is not moral. Using up all of a finite resource that others depend on, is not moral. By simply not doing these things, you are freely "obeying" moral law and giving it legitimacy.

    The first Americans arrived in this country to get away from those who would dictate to them what was and was not moral, what they were allowed to speak, what they were allowed to worship, what they were required to be. They wanted a place where they could live by their own sense of morality, whatever that might be.

    The Founders risked all that they owned of material possessions and their very lives to fight a bloody war to free the people from the dictates of monarchs or popes or archbishops who would dictate to the people what rights they would have and who they were required to worship and what they were required to be; i.e. what they would require to be morality.
    The pilgrims didn't get away from the persecution....they brought it with them and probably persecuted more people in the name of religion than the Church of England ever did.

  6. #216
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Subjective about if it's "right" or "wrong" is.
    No, subjective about "good" and "bad" which isn't necessarily a moral issue (though you seem to think it is)

    Orphanages rarely give their property to the children, but regardless: The point is other systems could benefit the very poor better. Something they might think is more moral, as it were. Because protection private property isn't an objective truth: it's subjective with regards to what one owns. Your preference for it based on your personal morality.
    They don't give *all* of their property, but they do use it to feed, cloth and shelter them. And while other systems might benefit them more, the poor don't exist in a vacuum. Our system, at least in theory, balances things in order to promote the *general* welfare; not the welfare of orphans only.


    And again, I never said it did. I said subjectivity about something being "right" or "wrong".
    But one can can support a position without regards to whether it is right or wrong. The decision can be made by deciding which is good and which is bad.


    But that's about what's "right" or "wrong".
    No, it's not.

    If I make a decision by ignoring what is right and what is wrong, then my decision is not based on what is right and what is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #217
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, subjective about "good" and "bad" which isn't necessarily a moral issue (though you seem to think it is)
    Yes, it is.

    They don't give *all* of their property, but they do use it to feed, cloth and shelter them. And while other systems might benefit them more, the poor don't exist in a vacuum. Our system, at least in theory, balances things in order to promote the *general* welfare; not the welfare of orphans only.
    And not everyone's moral system may agree with that.

    But one can can support a position without regards to whether it is right or wrong. The decision can be made by deciding which is good and which is bad.
    I never said otherwise.

    No, it's not.

    If I make a decision by ignoring what is right and what is wrong, then my decision is not based on what is right and what is wrong.
    And why do you think your decision is right?

    It seems kinda obvious that you're against religion having a place in politics and thus are defending these absurd positions.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  8. #218
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Yes, it is.
    I don't think so, and I believe I have shown that decision can be made without reference to any moral code.

    And not everyone's moral system may agree with that.
    Which supports my claim that decisions can be made without reference to any moral code.


    I never said otherwise.
    You seem to have said otherwise. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but you seem to be saying that laws are always justified by some form of morality


    And why do you think your decision is right?

    It seems kinda obvious that you're against religion having a place in politics and thus are defending these absurd positions.
    I've already explained why it's right - because it benefits society, which benefits me
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #219
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    Re: legislating morality

    Honestly, I don't think you know what a moral code is.

    Furthermore, I've argued for pages that laws are BASED on morality, not justified by it.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  10. #220
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Honestly, I don't think you know what a moral code is.

    Furthermore, I've argued for pages that laws are BASED on morality, not justified by it.
    Then maybe I haven't understood you.

    Are you saying that because the constitution was based on a certain morality, the laws are also based on morality? Or are you saying the laws in and of themselves are based on morality?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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