View Poll Results: which laws?

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  • abortion laws

    7 18.42%
  • animal cruelty laws

    1 2.63%
  • both

    7 18.42%
  • neither

    4 10.53%
  • all laws

    17 44.74%
  • no laws

    2 5.26%
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Thread: legislating morality

  1. #201
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, but I suspect your'e trying to make a point here, but if so, I'm not seeing what it is.
    The point was that based on and justified on, in this context, don't mean the same thing.

    Well, sure. Morality can be just as subjective so on that score it's not superior; it's a wash. And that's why a democratically based system for resolving those issues is used. After all, the maintenance of a civil society requires a certain amount of buy in from the general public and a democratic system helps provide that.
    A roughly agreed upon morality, in that sense.

    IMO, the decision as to which rights to protect and which not should be based on its' effect on the maintenance of a civil society and the promotion of the general welfare. There's no "magic formula" that can be used to tell us for certain where to draw the line. That's why we have a political process.
    But you believe a civil society and the general welfare as defined by the Founders to be a good thing. That's based in your morality.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    The point was that based on and justified on, in this context, don't mean the same thing.
    Ahh, I see. But in that case, I disagree. In this thread we have seen some argue that because the framers based the constitution on their moral beliefs, that allows us to justify laws on their morality.

    A roughly agreed upon morality, in that sense.
    Generally speaking, yes. I think the poll in this thread shows that many do use morality as their basis. However, that does not mean that morality can be the basis of laws. Abortion is a good example of this because even if the majority felt that abortion was immoral, the constitution would still not allow the govt to ban it. However, I will admit that might not be enough to stop a politically minded SCOTUS from allowing the govt to do so.


    But you believe a civil society and the general welfare as defined by the Founders to be a good thing. That's based in your morality.
    No, it's based on self-interest. It may also be what I think is the moral thing, but it can be justified on the grounds of self-interest alone, making morality superfluous.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #203
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Ahh, I see. But in that case, I disagree. In this thread we have seen some argue that because the framers based the constitution on their moral beliefs, that allows us to justify laws on their morality.
    Someone can argue that, that doesn't mean it's true. The initial basis for something and it's current justification need not be the same thing, at all. The internet was created by the Department of Defense to share research with different universities, does that justify its existence today? Tang was invented for astronauts, astronauts don't justify its existence today. Like...it's the closest something that's not physical can be to a fact: the initial basis for something and it's current justification don't need to be the same. They can be, but they do not have to be. No reason to ignore that that very apparent truism (the initial basis for the creation of Teflon was refrigerator coolant and later usage in nuclear testing; is the justification for Teflon's use either of those things now? Come on, man) just because some people are using it ways you don't agree with.

    Generally speaking, yes. I think the poll in this thread shows that many do use morality as their basis. However, that does not mean that morality can be the basis of laws. Abortion is a good example of this because even if the majority felt that abortion was immoral, the constitution would still not allow the govt to ban it. However, I will admit that might not be enough to stop a politically minded SCOTUS from allowing the govt to do so.
    The government wouldn't ban it because of another moral principle, mainly that regarding wide-sweeping ideas about freedom and liberty. That, too, is a moral principle, ya know.

    No, it's based on self-interest. It may also be what I think is the moral thing, but it can be justified on the grounds of self-interest alone, making morality superfluous.
    The protection of private property is not in the self-interest of anyone very poor. I don't think you realize that basically every time you think something is "good" or "bad" that's morality. It's not just religion. You think the protection of private property and general welfare to be good. Ask yourself why: that's your moral principles answering.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  4. #204
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Someone can argue that, that doesn't mean it's true. The initial basis for something and it's current justification need not be the same thing, at all. The internet was created by the Department of Defense to share research with different universities, does that justify its existence today? Tang was invented for astronauts, astronauts don't justify its existence today. Like...it's the closest something that's not physical can be to a fact: the initial basis for something and it's current justification don't need to be the same. They can be, but they do not have to be. No reason to ignore that that very apparent truism (the initial basis for the creation of Teflon was refrigerator coolant and later usage in nuclear testing; is the justification for Teflon's use either of those things now? Come on, man) just because some people are using it ways you don't agree with.
    Yes, I agree. Just because someone argues something doesn't make it true. And in this case, I think it is completely false. Not only does it not mean that the laws must now be based on morality, but I don't believe that the framers based the constitution on their morality.

    However, just because the basis doesn't have to remain the justification, that doesn't mean that the basis can not be the justification. It can, and some are using that as their argument - an argument I disagree with and it seems you do too.


    The government wouldn't ban it because of another moral principle, mainly that regarding wide-sweeping ideas about freedom and liberty. That, too, is a moral principle, ya know.
    I could justify freedom and liberty using self-interest, promotion of the general welfare, etc. I could not justify the banning of abortion in that way.




    The protection of private property is not in the self-interest of anyone very poor. I don't think you realize that basically every time you think something is "good" or "bad" that's morality. It's not just religion. You think the protection of private property and general welfare to be good. Ask yourself why: that's your moral principles answering.
    Even the poor benefit from the protection of their property, even though they may have less property than most. In addition, the protection of private property (in concert with other laws) allows for the development of an economic order through which they can lift themselves out of poverty.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #205
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, I agree. Just because someone argues something doesn't make it true. And in this case, I think it is completely false. Not only does it not mean that the laws must now be based on morality, but I don't believe that the framers based the constitution on their morality.

    However, just because the basis doesn't have to remain the justification, that doesn't mean that the basis can not be the justification. It can, and some are using that as their argument - an argument I disagree with and it seems you do too.
    All I'm saying is that all laws are based on morality. Someone's morality. Whether or not I agree with that morality is a completely different discussion.

    I could justify freedom and liberty using self-interest, promotion of the general welfare, etc. I could not justify the banning of abortion in that way.
    Sure you could. But you being a proponent of self-interest for all is very telling. Even if you were espousing self-interest for only yourself, screwing over the rest of us in the world, that would still be based on your personal moral code.

    Even the poor benefit from the protection of their property, even though they may have less property than most.
    And if they have none?

    In addition, the protection of private property (in concert with other laws) allows for the development of an economic order through which they can lift themselves out of poverty.
    Sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't. Do you like the idea of the poor lifting themselves out of poverty? That's a moral principle, either way.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    All I'm saying is that all laws are based on morality. Someone's morality. Whether or not I agree with that morality is a completely different discussion.



    Sure you could. But you being a proponent of self-interest for all is very telling. Even if you were espousing self-interest for only yourself, screwing over the rest of us in the world, that would still be based on your personal moral code.
    I think the difference between us here is that you consider any judgement concerning what is desirable and what is not must be based on some sort of moral code. I disagree with that conclusion.




    And if they have none?
    Everyone has property




    Sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't. Do you like the idea of the poor lifting themselves out of poverty? That's a moral principle, either way.
    No, the poor lifting themselves out of poverty is something I can prefer on the basis of selfishness. There situations where one can say "One way is right, but the other benefits me so I'll go with the latter". When people ignore what they think is right, and choose instead that which they like, they are not making a decision based on morality.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #207
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I think the difference between us here is that you consider any judgement concerning what is desirable and what is not must be based on some sort of moral code. I disagree with that conclusion.
    I literally cannot see any possible way in which that conclusion can be wrong.

    Everyone has property
    What do babies own?

    No, the poor lifting themselves out of poverty is something I can prefer on the basis of selfishness. There situations where one can say "One way is right, but the other benefits me so I'll go with the latter". When people ignore what they think is right, and choose instead that which they like, they are not making a decision based on morality.
    Morality doesn't need to be something nice. Someone can have a "bad" moral code.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I literally cannot see any possible way in which that conclusion can be wrong.
    Not seeing something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    What do babies own?
    You got me there, but babies can own things. Anyway, the property rights of its' parents does benefit the baby




    Morality doesn't need to be something nice. Someone can have a "bad" moral code.
    True, but decisions can be made without any regard to any moral code. Sure, there might be a moral code out there that addresses and even condones the position, but that doesn't mean that the position was determined by referencing that moral code.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #209
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    You're right. The left never seeks to control the behaviors of others. Lol.
    It's a matter of degree. Which side does it more?

    Which side wants to criminalize LGBT behavior, much less let them marry? Which side wants to include teaching creationism in school - as long as it's the "mainstream Christian" version of creationism? Which side outlawed (in OK) any town or county within that state from raising the minimum wage? So much for small government. Which side wants to get rid of sex education in school? If we look at just DP in the poll asking which is better, the freedom to discriminate or freedom from discrimination, which side exclusively defended their 'right' to discriminate on any grounds, including racial? And y'all wonder why so many more racists pop up among conservatives than among liberals....
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  10. #210
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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Not seeing something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    You realize any opinion you have about what's right or wrong that's not based on something objective is based upon your subjective preferences: morality.

    You got me there, but babies can own things. Anyway, the property rights of its' parents does benefit the baby
    Assuming they're not an orphan. The point is other systems could benefit the very poor better. Something they might think is more moral, as it were. Because protection private property isn't an objective truth: it's subjective with regards to what one owns. Your preference for it based on your personal morality.

    True, but decisions can be made without any regard to any moral code. Sure, there might be a moral code out there that addresses and even condones the position, but that doesn't mean that the position was determined by referencing that moral code.
    About what's right and wrong? Like what? We're not talking deciding on a flavor of ice cream.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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