View Poll Results: which laws?

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  • abortion laws

    7 18.42%
  • animal cruelty laws

    1 2.63%
  • both

    7 18.42%
  • neither

    4 10.53%
  • all laws

    17 44.74%
  • no laws

    2 5.26%
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Thread: legislating morality

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hancock View Post
    You're asking his opinion on it.

    That's subjective.

    ---

    People will have different opinions towards everything. While some think abortion is immoral, others do not. While some think homosexuality is immoral, others do not. If you were to pass any law, there would always be some opposition to it on a moral basis, regardless of whether or not the opposition was large or small.
    I asked him a question, what is your answer to it?

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I asked him a question, what is your answer to it?
    I believe the Holocaust was immoral, yes, because I believe you shouldn't take something from someone else without their permission. That includes life.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hancock View Post
    I believe the Holocaust was immoral, yes, because I believe you shouldn't take something from someone else without their permission. That includes life.
    So you then believe in objective morality.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    So you then believe in objective morality.
    No. If it were objective, it wouldn't be able to be challenged. Since that's my personal viewpoint, it is subjective. It would need to be a universal truth. 'x amount' of the population of the world may view the Holocaust as bad or immoral, but what about the others? What about people who supported the Holocaust? Neo-Nazis, anti-Semites?

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hancock View Post
    No. If it were objective, it wouldn't be able to be challenged. Since that's my personal viewpoint, it is subjective. It would need to be a universal truth. 'x amount' of the population of the world may view the Holocaust as bad or immoral, but what about the others? What about people who supported the Holocaust? Neo-Nazis, anti-Semites?
    Is it objectively true that the Earth is round?

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Is it objectively true that the Earth is round?
    No, the earth resembles an oblate spheroid and isn't perfectly round.

    You're confusing two things, fact and opinion. Morality cannot be factual, much like 1+1=2 cannot be an opinion. Again, for something to be objective, it needs to be a universal truth. The earth is 'round' and that can be proven. The Holocaust being immoral cannot be proven.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hancock View Post
    No, the earth resembles an oblate spheroid and isn't perfectly round.

    You're confusing two things, fact and opinion. Morality cannot be factual, much like 1+1=2 cannot be an opinion. Again, for something to be objective, it needs to be a universal truth. The earth is 'round' and that can be proven. The Holocaust being immoral cannot be proven.
    You know what I meant.

    You're starting with the premise that morality is a matter of subjective opinion. This is circular reasoning. And the immorality of the Holocaust can be proved:

    1. A thing is good insofar as it is in accordance with its nature (thus a good car is one which works properly, or a good pencil is one which writes well).

    2. Free human acts are matters of morality.

    3. Therefore an act which is against human nature is morally wrong.

    4. It is against man's social nature to intentionally kill others without sufficient cause (since if it were, there would be a contradiction, as if such were right, then by doing this right thing a man would deprive others of their ability to do it to him, which would violate the fundamental equality of humans).

    5. The holocaust was intentional killings committed without sufficient cause.

    Thus it is proved that the holocaust was immoral.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    You know what I meant.
    I did, the comment about the roundness of the Earth was me being a wise-ass.

    5. The holocaust was intentional killings committed without sufficient cause.

    Thus it is proved that the holocaust was immoral.
    This is the problem with your argument. Who decides what cause is sufficient? In your opinion, the reason was not sufficient, but to those who planned and executed the acts, there was sufficient cause/reasoning.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hancock View Post
    I did, the comment about the roundness of the Earth was me being a wise-ass.



    This is the problem with your argument. Who decides what cause is sufficient? In your opinion, the reason was not sufficient, but to those who planned and executed the acts, there was sufficient cause/reasoning.
    I've already established that the general norm is that intentional killings are immoral. If a person wishes to argue (whether they believe it or whether they're trying, as you are, to demonstrate a point regarding the nature of morality) that there was sufficient cause for the holocaust, then they have the burden of providing an argument for this position, and I will then provide a refutation, however I can't provide a refutation of an argument that hasn't been made.

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    Re: legislating morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    I've already established that the general norm is that intentional killings are immoral. If a person wishes to argue (whether they believe it or whether they're trying, as you are, to demonstrate a point regarding the nature of morality) that there was sufficient cause for the holocaust, then they have the burden of providing an argument for this position, and I will then provide a refutation, however I can't provide a refutation of an argument that hasn't been made.
    You've argued that it's human nature. Prove it. You are the one claiming that moral objectivity is indeed a real thing, but haven't provided anything aside from 'sufficient cause' which is subjective. Obviously, someone must have believed there was sufficient enough reasoning or the event would not have taken place.

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