• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?


  • Total voters
    93

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Which is more important: the "right" to discriminate, or freedom from discrimination?

Remember, you can't have both. If a business refuses to serve someone because he's black, and he refuses to leave and the business calls the cops to enforce their "right"...it is at that moment that we have government-enforced racism.

Is that really what we want?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Government enforced racism is a blemish on the history of a great country. I hope it never returns.
Which is more important: the "right" to discriminate, or freedom from discrimination?

Remember, you can't have both. If a business refuses to serve someone because he's black, and he refuses to leave and the business calls the cops to enforce their "right"...it is at that moment that we have government-enforced racism.

Is that really what we want?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

The reason some do not care about freedom from unjust discrimination is they're white and suffer no such threat on a societal level. The world ends at their nose.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

This is one of the few subjects on which I disagree with many of my fellow libertarians. I think the benefit of (most) anti-discrimination laws is ultimately worth the small sacrifice of some people's liberty.

If you want to open your business to the public, that is exactly what you're going to have to do.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

This is one of the few subjects on which I disagree with many of my fellow libertarians. I think the benefit of (most) anti-discrimination laws is ultimately worth the small sacrifice of some people's liberty.

If you want to open your business to the public, that is exactly what you're going to have to do.

I would think libertarians would support laws against fraud (providing a service of no real value) and aggression (waging economic war).
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I think that this question begs mention of something that I've noticed over the years: As a general rule (yes, there are exceptions), those on the left tend towards supporting rights over responsibilities, while those on the right tend towards supporting responsibilities over rights.
We have a responsibility to avoid racism and the right to expect freedom from racism. If everyone took their responsibility in this matter to heart, we would have no need for the right to ever be an issue, since there would be no racism to be free from. The problem is that we have two groups of people who make this impossible: The first and most obvious are those who shirk their responsibility and carry out racist acts. These are easy to spot and are, in this country, becoming a dying breed. The other is those who use the right be free from racism as a tool to gain that which they have no right to. These are more difficult to spot, but are a growing group. They have the stamp of approval from far too many people who put rights above responsibilities, so they get a pass on their abuse of their right.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Which is more important: the "right" to discriminate, or freedom from discrimination?

Remember, you can't have both. If a business refuses to serve someone because he's black, and he refuses to leave and the business calls the cops to enforce their "right"...it is at that moment that we have government-enforced racism.

Is that really what we want?

No. It is at that point that we have a government-enforced right not to be discriminated against.

If you are serving the public, you do not have (and should not have) the right to discriminate. What you do in your home, on the sidewalk, in your car, at establishments other than your own public business/organization is completely up to you. Choose to associate, not to associate, to call names, to defend . . . whatever. But when you have a business or organization that serves the public? Your right to discriminate in your business or organization is over-ridden by my right not to be discriminated against.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Without the right to discriminate you can't very well have human rights, so obviously the correct choice here is the right to discriminate.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Which is more important: the "right" to discriminate, or freedom from discrimination?

Remember, you can't have both. If a business refuses to serve someone because he's black, and he refuses to leave and the business calls the cops to enforce their "right"...it is at that moment that we have government-enforced racism.

Is that really what we want?

That ignores some important variables. My business is doing home repairs/improvements and thus I work (often alone) at the customer's location. I deserve to have the right to refuse to work in unsafe areas regardless of any accusations of racism - if my tools are stolen then my income earning potential disappears.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I don't think the federal government was given the proper power to so act.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Which is more important: the "right" to discriminate, or freedom from discrimination?

Remember, you can't have both. If a business refuses to serve someone because he's black, and he refuses to leave and the business calls the cops to enforce their "right"...it is at that moment that we have government-enforced racism.

Is that really what we want?

The right to property, labor, and association is more important than some idiotic idea that you have the right to force other people to do your bidding.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

No. It is at that point that we have a government-enforced right not to be discriminated against.

If you are serving the public, you do not have (and should not have) the right to discriminate. What you do in your home, on the sidewalk, in your car, at establishments other than your own public business/organization is completely up to you. Choose to associate, not to associate, to call names, to defend . . . whatever. But when you have a business or organization that serves the public? Your right to discriminate in your business or organization is over-ridden by my right not to be discriminated against.

Except that the government requiring people to have a license to use their property as a business is a rights violation, which effectively voids your entire argument.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

That ignores some important variables. My business is doing home repairs/improvements and thus I work (often alone) at the customer's location. I deserve to have the right to refuse to work in unsafe areas regardless of any accusations of racism - if my tools are stolen then my income earning potential disappears.

You should be able to decline work regardless of the reason. Just because you have a business doesn't mean you are obligated to engage in commerce with whoever wants to do business with you.

If I own a professional cleaning service, and someone tries to hire me to clean a slaughterhouse, I wouldn't take the job, nor should I be forced to.

I agree people shouldn't be discriminated against, but I also disagree with the concept that you HAVE to accept an offer of commerce with someone because it may offend the other person. Once that becomes the rule, talk about a slippery slope.....
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Except that the government requiring people to have a license to use their property as a business is a rights violation, which effectively voids your entire argument.

What am I supposed to do with that, Henrin? :lol:

Oh, okay, how about two rights violations don't make a rights violation right? (Yeah, that's it.)
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

This is one of the few subjects on which I disagree with many of my fellow libertarians. I think the benefit of (most) anti-discrimination laws is ultimately worth the small sacrifice of some people's liberty.

If you want to open your business to the public, that is exactly what you're going to have to do.

Well said. And the fact that many libertarians think as your fellow libertarians do is one reason why libertarianism sometimes gets the "tolerates racism" label.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Well said. And the fact that many libertarians think as your fellow libertarians do is one reason why libertarianism sometimes gets the "tolerates racism" label.

By idiots that don't understand the core principles of libertarianism perhaps.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

You should be able to decline work regardless of the reason. Just because you have a business doesn't mean you are obligated to engage in commerce with whoever wants to do business with you.

If I own a professional cleaning service, and someone tries to hire me to clean a slaughterhouse, I wouldn't take the job, nor should I be forced to.

I agree people shouldn't be discriminated against, but I also disagree with the concept that you HAVE to accept an offer of commerce with someone because it may offend the other person. Once that becomes the rule, talk about a slippery slope.....

And that's not how the law is enforced. To use an easy example, if you refuse to do business with someone who walks through your door because they're Jewish? You've violated the law . . . whether he owns a slaughterhouse or not. ;)
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I think that this question begs mention of something that I've noticed over the years: As a general rule (yes, there are exceptions), those on the left tend towards supporting rights over responsibilities, while those on the right tend towards supporting responsibilities over rights.
We have a responsibility to avoid racism and the right to expect freedom from racism. If everyone took their responsibility in this matter to heart, we would have no need for the right to ever be an issue, since there would be no racism to be free from. The problem is that we have two groups of people who make this impossible: The first and most obvious are those who shirk their responsibility and carry out racist acts. These are easy to spot and are, in this country, becoming a dying breed. The other is those who use the right be free from racism as a tool to gain that which they have no right to. These are more difficult to spot, but are a growing group. They have the stamp of approval from far too many people who put rights above responsibilities, so they get a pass on their abuse of their right.

One wonders if you'd feel the same if you'd lived a life where you're being the one discriminated against, where you try as hard as anyone else but can't succeed because you're being judged by what you are, instead of by the content of your character.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

What am I supposed to do with that, Henrin? :lol:

Oh, okay, how about two rights violations don't make a rights violation right? (Yeah, that's it.)

Your argument is invalid if the license you're holding them to is a right violation itself. Since making people get approval from the state to practice their rights is clearly a right violation you're argument is invalid. There is of course no right violation by refusing to do business with someone, so I'm not sure how your argument here applies.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

That ignores some important variables. My business is doing home repairs/improvements and thus I work (often alone) at the customer's location. I deserve to have the right to refuse to work in unsafe areas regardless of any accusations of racism - if my tools are stolen then my income earning potential disappears.

But really I don't think that's racism per se. You're making your decision based on what you believe to be the relative safety of an area where you're working.

My question is more about whether the right to discriminate due to race/ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation is more important than the freedom from such discrimination.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Your argument is invalid if the license you're holding them to is a right violation itself. Since making people get approval from the state to practice their rights is clearly a right violation, you're argument is invalid. There is of course no right violation by refusing to do business with someone, so I'm not sure how your argument here applies.

Well, hopefully, others understood my post. I think it applies just fine. You want to argue whether or not it's a rights violation to have to license your business? And whether or not laws can be enforced inside a licensed business that's so-licensed in violation (you think) of your rights? Start a thread.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

The right to property, labor, and association is more important than some idiotic idea that you have the right to force other people to do your bidding.

You can do what you like on your private property...but if your property is open to the public, THEN my question applies. When you deal with the public, which right is more important - to be able to discriminate, or the freedom therefrom?

You can't have both.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

You should be able to decline work regardless of the reason. Just because you have a business doesn't mean you are obligated to engage in commerce with whoever wants to do business with you.

If I own a professional cleaning service, and someone tries to hire me to clean a slaughterhouse, I wouldn't take the job, nor should I be forced to.

I agree people shouldn't be discriminated against, but I also disagree with the concept that you HAVE to accept an offer of commerce with someone because it may offend the other person. Once that becomes the rule, talk about a slippery slope.....

I disagree. If my business is retail selling (at a fixed location) then, while I may limit quantities so as not to run out of goods, I may not refuse to sell an item to one person in favor of another. Your example, as was mine, was refusing a type of work (or an unsafe worksite) but not refusing service based on the customer's race, gender, ethnicity or religion.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

And that's not how the law is enforced. To use an easy example, if you refuse to do business with someone who walks through your door because they're Jewish? You've violated the law . . . whether he owns a slaughterhouse or not. ;)

But what if the slaughterhouse owner was black, Maggie. If I as a white woman said "no thanks", what's to stop someone from assuming I'm a raicst? That is the slippery slope too.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

No. It is at that point that we have a government-enforced right not to be discriminated against.

If you are serving the public, you do not have (and should not have) the right to discriminate. What you do in your home, on the sidewalk, in your car, at establishments other than your own public business/organization is completely up to you. Choose to associate, not to associate, to call names, to defend . . . whatever. But when you have a business or organization that serves the public? Your right to discriminate in your business or organization is over-ridden by my right not to be discriminated against.
Hear, hear
 
Back
Top Bottom