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Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?


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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

So what is "morally right and fair" if you see some distinction between that personal standard and the legal laws of the land?

That seems a very broad and not very exact term to apply that could mean many different things to different people and even vary with different situations at different times.

Maybe. I use the non-aggression principle as my yardstick. I consider it unjust to initiate violations against the person or property of my fellow man. Thus, I consider it unjust to take the property of others. You apparently consider it just for someone to use force to take what belongs to you. I have more respect for my fellow man than that.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Maybe. I use the non-aggression principle as my yardstick. I consider it unjust to initiate violations against the person or property of my fellow man. Thus, I consider it unjust to take the property of others. You apparently consider it just for someone to use force to take what belongs to you. I have more respect for my fellow man than that.

You seem caught in a loop chasing your own tail going round and round and round. Why are you refusing to answer the issues I have brought up regarding this declaration by you about what is just and moral and the problems that come with it making it impossible to use that as any sort of lawful standard for a nation?

Why do you insist on attacking me and telling me what I believe instead of continuing the very discussion you started by speaking to the issues I raised and defending your own standard?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

But you didn't make that stipulation before and now you're backtracking on it, which is what typically happens. Police have no business enforcing discrimination...except when they do. Face it in the end we have government enforced discrimination all the time.



But the public doesn't own the business. Therefore it is a private business. This whole nonsense of being open to the public is a legal fiction. Either the business belongs to the owner(s) and is a private one and subject to all the same rights and freedoms as the owner(s) or it is owned by the public and thus subject to the non-discrimination requirements of the government.




Easy enough since both you and I would agree that the gun wielder in this case is violating another person's right (most likely. Can't say for sure unless you specify the crime). But it is obvious that there is disagreement on whether or not there is a right to not be discriminated against. We both agree that the government cannot do so. And actually we both agree that the private individual can do so in most situations. You simply don't want to believe that part of a person's private property and the inherent rights of that and himself are applicable at times and places that you don't like him exercising them. Use an actual comparable example where the action of the person is more subjective as to whether or not they are violating a right.



Not surprising. One does not have to know about something in order to interact with it, even if he objects to it. You object to murder and yet your friend, unbeknownst to you, is a murderer. Federalist objects to the use of eminent domain and yet might be using a facility, unknowingly, that was taken by eminent domain. It does not make him any more hypocritical to use such a facility than it would you being friends with the murderer. Similarly, if the only facility available to do a required task was obtained by eminent domain and he had no alternatives (phone, internet, etc), he would still not be hypocritical. That would be like protesting the work conditions in the shop but continuing to work there since you need the money. Finally we can play 6 degrees of separation with just about anything and probably find a connection to eminent domain. It is rather unreasonable to hold to account anyone for secondary relations to that which he opposes.

Finally you still have not proven anything as far as his association to eminent domain facilities. At best you can cite odds, but for all you know Federalist may live in a small town where they have never used eminent domain and no higher level has ever needed to make use of it. You cannot in any honesty show that he indeed benefits from eminent domain. Unless you're stalking him and then we have other issues to address.



Credit where credit is due....dude that was pitiful even for deflection. Your answer had absolutely nothing to do with the question posed. You entirely changed the premise. If you want to discredit the premise that is one thing, or show where it is incompatible to the topic at hand. But you don't get to change it and not get called out on it.



Sorry it is discrimination. Just because the liberals are trying to confine the concept of discrimination to just their special groups, it does not mean that any discrimination outside those groups is not still discrimination. If you base it upon the color of the person's hair....discrimination. Left or right handed....discrimination. Cat owner or dog owner....discrimination.

In the example you were indeed prejudiced. You made an assumption based upon the visual without really giving the person a chance that show whether or not they fall within your stereotype. By acting upon that prejudice, i.e. not hiring them to babysit, you discriminated.

I did give the person a chance. He failed to show that he may be a good caretaker the second he did something that I thought would be bad for my kids to learn. He was given the chance, failing it in the first second doesn't make it discrimination compared to someone failing 20 minutes in. It just means they were even less qualified.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

You seem caught in a loop chasing your own tail going round and round and round. Why are you refusing to answer the issues I have brought up regarding this declaration by you about what is just and moral and the problems that come with it making it impossible to use that as any sort of lawful standard for a nation?

I answered you already. I consider it unjust to initiate a violation against the person or property of my fellow man. That's your answer, in case you missed it.


Why do you insist on attacking me and telling me what I believe instead of continuing the very discussion you started by speaking to the issues I raised and defending your own standard?

My standard is that it is unjust to initiate a violation against the person or property of my neighbor. This entire thread is devoted to the discussion of whether or not it is okay to violate the person of one's neighbor in order to force him to allow someone he doesn't want onto his property and to force him to engage in exchange with this person. You have taken the position that it is right and just to do so. I oppose the initiation of such a violation.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

How can you conduct business on your free time?

I don't see how the question relates to anything I posted, so could you clarify? Actually I often have mixed business and free time, most especially when I was running my own business.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I answered you already. I consider it unjust to initiate a violation against the person or property of my fellow man. That's your answer, in case you missed it.




My standard is that it is unjust to initiate a violation against the person or property of my neighbor. This entire thread is devoted to the discussion of whether or not it is okay to violate the person of one's neighbor in order to force him to allow someone he doesn't want onto his property and to force him to engage in exchange with this person. You have taken the position that it is right and just to do so. I oppose the initiation of such a violation.

I think I asked you before, but how does your opinion work if, say, the only doctor in town or the only grocery store in town decides to stop serving those whom it doesn't like? There's still many towns in America that have only one of each, and most of these towns have people that are too poor to move elsewhere. So...what happens?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

We aren't talking about engaging in business in the public domain. We are talking about engaging in one's own private business that one funded with his/her own money and took all the risks associated with that business's success. So long as they do not violate anybody's rights or any formal legal agreements, a person should not give up their unalienable rights to be who and what they are purely because somebody thinks they should be able to tell that person what they can and cannot do with their own property.


And which unalienable rights are you alleging were violated??


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

And which unalienable rights are you alleging were violated??


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

There are too many to list. But basically, so long as we are violating nobody else's rights, we are talking about an unalienable right to be who and what we are, to say what we think, believe, hope for, and express our personal opinions without fear that some group or mob will organize a hateful protest or boycott in an attempt to punish us for just being ourselves.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I think I asked you before, but how does your opinion work if, say, the only doctor in town or the only grocery store in town decides to stop serving those whom it doesn't like? There's still many towns in America that have only one of each, and most of these towns have people that are too poor to move elsewhere. So...what happens?

The one thing that should not happen is that force should not be initiated against the body or property of the doctor or store owner. Any other course of action is legitimate.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I answered you already. I consider it unjust to initiate a violation against the person or property of my fellow man. That's your answer, in case you missed it.




My standard is that it is unjust to initiate a violation against the person or property of my neighbor. This entire thread is devoted to the discussion of whether or not it is okay to violate the person of one's neighbor in order to force him to allow someone he doesn't want onto his property and to force him to engage in exchange with this person. You have taken the position that it is right and just to do so. I oppose the initiation of such a violation.

When you criticize others for following the law of the land but not your personal individual standard based on your own personal belief system, you are in effect placing the validity of your personal standard above the Constitution and the law of the land. And in any discussion that places you as completely and utterly irrelevant in daring to criticize anyone when all they are doing is following the Constitution and the law.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I don't see how the question relates to anything I posted, so could you clarify? Actually I often have mixed business and free time, most especially when I was running my own business.

Well, I suppose if you are doing business on your free time, it is nearly impossible to prove you are discriminating based on a person's attributes as long as you don't say "I refuse to do business with you because you are black (or whatever)". It would be pretty evident if a business owner, opened for public business, refused service while servicing others.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Indeed.

I'm not sure I'd call it backtracking so much as realizing my definition was incomplete. But either way.

I'd say at least acknowledge that when you expand upon your definition. It's what I try to do.

What do you mean by the qualifying term "JUST"? I used it to refer to doing what is legal according to the law. Is that how you are using it?

What is legal is not always right. What is right is not always legal. Similar principles apply to "just"

How can you conduct business on your free time?

Ebay!

I did give the person a chance. He failed to show that he may be a good caretaker the second he did something that I thought would be bad for my kids to learn. He was given the chance, failing it in the first second doesn't make it discrimination compared to someone failing 20 minutes in. It just means they were even less qualified.

As they say, you can't judge the book by it's cover. In the end he may have well taught your kids more of what you wanted them to learn and in a method they could better understood than from you. But you can't know because you prejudged him and then discriminated based upon that prejudgement. You not wanting to believe that it isn't the same as prejudging based upon race and discriminating on that prejudgement is simple intellectual dishonesty.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

There are too many to list. But basically, so long as we are violating nobody else's rights, we are talking about an unalienable right to be who and what we are, to say what we think, believe, hope for, and express our personal opinions without fear that some group or mob will organize a hateful protest or boycott in an attempt to punish us for just being ourselves.

Started off fine then the partisan nonsense crept in.

You have no unalienable right that people or society will not organize, boycott or protest in response to hateful, racist or bigoted speech.

Btw, a directive, order or request that a certain race of people be refused admittance to a popular venue open to the public, is violating someone's rights.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

When you criticize others for following the law of the land but not your personal individual standard based on your own personal belief system, you are in effect placing the validity of your personal standard above the Constitution and the law of the land. And in any discussion that places you as completely and utterly irrelevant in daring to criticize anyone when all they are doing is following the Constitution and the law.

I am not criticizing the constitution. I am criticizing the legislation that congress opted to enact, since it violates the non-aggression principle. Unlike you, I consider each of us as having equal rights and believe that none of us has the divine right to act as master over others. That includes declaring that he is taking ownership of another's property, unless that taking is as punishment for a criminal conviction.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Well, I suppose if you are doing business on your free time, it is nearly impossible to prove you are discriminating based on a person's attributes as long as you don't say "I refuse to do business with you because you are black (or whatever)". It would be pretty evident if a business owner, opened for public business, refused service while servicing others.

Nobody with any business sense would do that because of the bad reputation it would give him with his other patrons. But if a business owner was that stupid, and his customers left him because of it, well so be it. He has no right to have customers who don't want to do business with him.

But you still are dancing all around the principle involved here. We each have the right to our own opinions, thoughts, beliefs, and attitudes or we don't. If we don't, then somebody else is given power to dictate those to us and we have no liberty, no unalienable rights, no other real rights of any kind.

For one person to presume the moral authority to dictate to another person what that person must speak, think, believe, appreciate, or whatever or else he/she will be subject to an angry, viscious attack on his/her person or property by some self-righteous mob is just plain unAmerican. It is wrong. It is evil. And no person with any sense of liberty, unalienable rights, justice, or right and wrong should condone it.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Started off fine then the partisan nonsense crept in.

You have no unalienable right that people or society will not organize, boycott or protest in response to hateful, racist or bigoted speech.

Btw, a directive, order or request that a certain race of people be refused admittance to a popular venue open to the public, is violating someone's rights.

We aren't talking about a directive, order, or request. We are talking about a person's ability to conduct himself/herself and his/her own private property as he/she sees fit so long as he/she does not violate anybody else's rights. Why is that such a difficult concept for some to grasp here?

And I challenge you to point out a single partisan syllable I wrote in any of my posts on this subject. This is not a matter of partisanship. This is a matter of principle. Of right and wrong. Of an ethical sense that people must be allowed to be who and what they are with impunity or we have mob rule and nobody has any rights.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

What is legal is not always right. What is right is not always legal. Similar principles apply to "just"

Wonderful. Except you forgot to tell us what JUST is. :doh
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I am not criticizing the constitution. I am criticizing the legislation that congress opted to enact, since it violates the non-aggression principle. Unlike you, I consider each of us as having equal rights and believe that none of us has the divine right to act as master over others. That includes declaring that he is taking ownership of another's property, unless that taking is as punishment for a criminal conviction.

It is a distinction without a difference as we have been over many many many times. Your personal standard is irrelevant next to the Constitution. It is simply nothing.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Well, I suppose if you are doing business on your free time, it is nearly impossible to prove you are discriminating based on a person's attributes as long as you don't say "I refuse to do business with you because you are black (or whatever)". It would be pretty evident if a business owner, opened for public business, refused service while servicing others.

I have walked out of a restaurant when the proprietor refused service to a young black man. I have refused to do business with a dry cleaners who refused to accept dry cleaning from a local Hispanic family. I am not any kind of fan of those who would discriminate against somebody because of their race or ethnicity. But nobody questioned the right of either proprietor to run their business as they saw fit. There was no organized protest. No threats. No violence of any kind. Just a quiet boycott among people who preferred to do business with those they saw as more fair and just in their business practices and each making up their minds on their own about that.

Both of those proprietors eventually came around and changed their policies, if not their attitudes. And they got their customers back. The people didn't see their attitudes as anybody's business. So long as the business practices were ethical and just, that was sufficient. That is the way it should work at all times. Not people dictating to others who and what they have to be in order to be acceptable. But a culture simply living their individual live with their own individual code of ethics. It was effective. It was American. It was good.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

We aren't talking about a directive, order, or request. We are talking about a person's ability to conduct himself/herself and his/her own private property as he/she sees fit so long as he/she does not violate anybody else's rights. Why is that such a difficult concept for some to grasp here?

Probably because you aren't being honest when you just changed what you previously wrote.

You asserted that people had no right to protest, organize or boycott in response to someone's speech. That's wrong in it's assertion.

And I challenge you to point out a single partisan syllable I wrote in any of my posts on this subject. This is not a matter of partisanship. This is a matter of principle. Of right and wrong. Of an ethical sense that people must be allowed to be who and what they are with impunity or we have mob rule and nobody has any rights.

Where is mob rule prevalent??



THE BELOW IS SERLING'S QUOTE!!!!!!!
The little I ask you is not to promote it on that … and not to bring them to my games.”
I'm referring Serling's remarks, which I presume is what you are basing this thread on.
 
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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I would ask that the mods remedy reconmark in Post #2020 attributing words to me in the quote box that I did not say and would not say.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I would ask that the mods remedy reconmark in Post #2020 attributing words to me in the quote box that I did not say and would not say.

How about just acting like an adult and not a crybaby. If you think I incorrectly attributed something to you be adult and say so. I'm adult enough to correct my own mistakes.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

It is a distinction without a difference as we have been over many many many times. Your personal standard is irrelevant next to the Constitution. It is simply nothing.

You seem to be unaware that there is a difference between the constitution and a particular piece of legislation enacted by congress. One can certainly support the constitution and oppose a particular piece of legislation.

My personal standard does not apply to the constitution, but I use it to judge whether or not congress ought to opt to enact any particular piece of legislation.

If a piece of legislation violates the non-aggression principle, I will oppose it. I understand that you support taking the property of others, but I consider this unethical, which is why argue against such legislation.

And to get back to the thread, none of us has the divine right to tell our fellow man who he must allow on his property or with whom he must exchange. We are all equals. Some are not masters and some are not slaves.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

The one thing that should not happen is that force should not be initiated against the body or property of the doctor or store owner. Any other course of action is legitimate.

So if people can't eat or can't see the doctor because the only places in town won't serve them because of their skin color or religion, that's fine with you.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

So if people can't eat or can't see the doctor because the only places in town won't serve them because of their skin color or religion, that's fine with you.

Answering for myself, thats not fine-but neither is forcing the towns doctor with his private practice to see anyone.
As much as you might want it to be, we dont live in Cuba.
Its remarkable watching lefties come out of their shell and exhibiting their pocket statist tendencies.
 
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