Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

AliHajiSheik said:

I won't be playing your juvenile games. If you quote me again, that is your own cry for attention which I will no longer give.

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But you already claimed much the same and here you are again. Whats next..... announcing you are putting me on ignore and then replying to what I post? :doh:roll:

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

No - its blatant and obvious hypocrisy.

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Just gotta love how you think you're soo righteous that you're not subject to the very same thing that you are calling "blatant and obvious hypocrisy".

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:

Just gotta love how you think you're soo righteous that you're not subject to the very same thing that you are calling "blatant and obvious hypocrisy".

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Feel free to provide examples as I have done with the libertarians I accuse of being hypocrites.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Feel free to provide examples as I have done with the libertarians I accuse of being hypocrites.

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Scenario: Would you support a bill that gave all but $100 of your money to people that you thought didn't deserve it?

It's a yes or no question. Don't elaborate. Don't try to avoid or duck out of the question. Just give a direct "yes" or "no" answer.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:

Scenario: Would you support a bill that gave all but $100 of your money to people that you thought didn't deserve it?

It's a yes or no question. Don't elaborate. Don't try to avoid or duck out of the question. Just give a direct "yes" or "no" answer.

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In the three years I worked for the Michigan legislature - 2011, 12 & 13 - I wrote bills and read and studied even more. I would not give my unqualified YES to any bill without reading it all first and that includes a bill honoring American mothers on mothers day. The devil is always in the details.

That would also have to include your mythical imaginary "bill" here.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

In the three years I worked for the Michigan legislature - 2011, 12 & 13 - I wrote bills and read and studied even more. I would not give my unqualified YES to any bill without reading it all first and that includes a bill honoring American mothers on mothers day. The devil is always in the details.

That would also have to include your mythical imaginary "bill" here.

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Yeah, that's what I thought. You just can't help yourself can you?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:

Yeah, that's what I thought. You just can't help yourself can you?

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You make no sense. In your desire to attack me you stick your head in the sand and play ostrich to the answer you were provided with. I would NOT support ANY BILL - got that..... ANY BILL until I could read it. And that is based on practical real real experience of both writing, researching and studying the legislative process where the devil is always in the details.

But tell us how my refusing to give an unqualified YES to supporting an idea for a bill for the reasons I provided is hypocrisy on my part. Lets hear it.

And you still HAVE NOT provide a single example of any hypocrisy on my part. And you have a mountain of posts from me to use as possible evidence.

Lets see it.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Thank you for again confirming what I figured out a very long time ago --- you are all in favor of government when it benefits you and all against it when it imposes some obligation or duty upon you that the American people want but your extremist ideology objects to because it upsets the gospel of selfishness. True hypocrisy.

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I am in favor of good government, and I oppose evil and tyrannical government. Why does this surprise you?

You want the government to prevent your fellow Americans from controlling access to their own property. I consider this evil and tyrannical, thus I oppose the policy you support.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:

I am in favor of good government, and I oppose evil and tyrannical government. Why does this surprise you?

You want the government to prevent your fellow Americans from controlling access to their own property. I consider this evil and tyrannical, thus I oppose the policy you support.

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The only thing that "surprises" me about you Federalist is your inability to justify your own personal hypocritical actions with your views on government. You openly such things as the exercise of eminent domain but freely and willingly use and enjoy the benefits from those powers. So your so called "opposition" are just crocodile tears which are meaningless compared to your true actions.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

The only thing that "surprises" me about you Federalist is your inability to justify your own personal hypocritical actions with your views on government. You openly such things as the exercise of eminent domain but freely and willingly use and enjoy the benefits from those powers. So your so called "opposition" are just crocodile tears which are meaningless compared to your true actions.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all know that you think I'm a hypocrite. Whatever. I don't really care what you think of me.

I do care, however, when people wish to use the force of government to deny the American people the ability to control access to their own property.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Your personal opinion is noted but rejected as contrary to legal and political reality in the current USA.

The horrors of the Gilded Age basically come down to one key factor: government being firmly on the side of the rich and powerful allowing them to exploit, abuse and run roughshod over the American people. This was manifested in all manner of public policy especially in the all important of labor law which determined the economic health of people.

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So right now we now have a government that has the power to rape the constitutional rights of people as long as doing so is approved by the masses. We have advocates of massive government claiming that the rich should grovel in order to keep what they earned and that most of our natural rights-as guaranteed in the bill of rights only are what the government says they are

sounds like the guilded age was not as bad as the left wing claims.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:

You know very well what I'm referring to. The GOP has zero liberals in office nationwide, whereas the Democratic party certainly does have both liberals and conservatives (though we certainly have more liberals than conservatives).

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I really doubt that the Dems have any conservatives. Libertarians maybe and likely, but conservatives. Naw. GOP also has libertarians BTW. But since you made the claim, who are you saying is conservative in the Dems. Or do you just mean more conservative than the party even while less conservative than the GOP?

ginwood said:

who says the cops have to be called about it, anyway? He leaves or the morgue wagon can be called, he can take his pick, and it shouldn't matter if he's purple polka dotted. It's private property and the owne has told you to leave, you LEAVE, or else you never go anywhere, ever again.

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Sorry as has been pointed out before, by the very people arguing for personal property rights no less, the right to life trumps presonal property rights. It's only when your life or safety is threaten that you are no longer violating another's right. Unless you really are anarchist, then anything goes.

haymarket said:

You could always exercise your ultimate right to find a nation more to your liking.

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Or we can excercise the right to change this one for the better. Also our right.

TurtleDude said:

that is nonsense.

we libertarians want the government to act in the areas where it was properly delegated the power to do so. and that may or may not be in our "best interests" for a given action.

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Indeed, by actually getting the personal property right and freedom of association fully recognized, we may well find ourselves on the discriminated end as a business says, "no whites" or "no geeks" or "no redheads" or whatever. The actual freedom is more important than any advantage we recieve.

haymarket said:

Why do I find people who want to destroy American society and take us back to the gilded age horrors to be loathsome and despicable? Its a bit of a self explanatory situation.

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Subjective view. No basis in reality. What was that about a 101 class?

haymarket said:

You openly such things as the exercise of eminent domain but freely and willingly use and enjoy the benefits from those powers. So your so called "opposition" are just crocodile tears which are meaningless compared to your true actions.

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Is that suppose to be support or opposes?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all know that you think I'm a hypocrite. Whatever. I don't really care what you think of me.

I do care, however, when people wish to use the force of government to deny the American people the ability to control access to their own property.

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When you admit your own actions and they show blatant hypocrisy they also show that your words are meaningless next to the contrary actions.

Your last comment is ample evidence why Libertarians should change their name to Propertytarians.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

TurtleDude said:

So right now we now have a government that has the power to rape the constitutional rights of people as long as doing so is approved by the masses. We have advocates of massive government claiming that the rich should grovel in order to keep what they earned and that most of our natural rights-as guaranteed in the bill of rights only are what the government says they are

sounds like the guilded age was not as bad as the left wing claims.

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Of course you would sympathize with the evils of the Gilded Age. No shock there as the conditions then - both economic and political are very much in tune with your ideology today. Thank you for admitting it.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

maquiscat said:

Or we can excercise the right to change this one for the better. Also our right.

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Of course you have that right. So how is the effort to turn the clock back more than a century and a half going?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Of course you would sympathize with the evils of the Gilded Age. No shock there as the conditions then - both economic and political are very much in tune with your ideology today. Thank you for admitting it.

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Wrong as usual. I sympathize to a time where the federal government had not expanded so far beyond the intent of the founders. Most of problems you whine about could have been alleviated by state action rather than raping the tenth amendment

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

When you admit your own actions and they show blatant hypocrisy they also show that your words are meaningless next to the contrary actions.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think I'm a hypocrite. Whatever.

I also am very glad that you have yet again reached that brick wall where you are out of actual policy arguments and have to attack me personally for my so-called hypocrisy. You always end up there eventually.

Your last comment is ample evidence why Libertarians should change their name to Propertytarians.

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Yes, libertarian respect the property of their fellow man. For example, they would never use the force of government to deny the American people the ability to control access to their own property. Libertarianism is all about respecting the person and property of one's fellow man.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Of course you have that right. So how is the effort to turn the clock back more than a century and a half going?

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why do statists believe that the only progress is MORE Servitude and More Dependency. My vision of progress is children becoming adults and throwing off the need to have government serve as their parents

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

Of course you have that right. So how is the effort to turn the clock back more than a century and a half going?

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That's it? all the other stuff and that's it? You couldn't even answer the simple question that didn't even have any possible bias?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

TurtleDude said:

Wrong as usual.

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actually you provided the statement proving I was right about your love of the Gilded Age

sounds like the guilded age was not as bad as the left wing claims.

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So your statement that I was wrong was wrong.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

maquiscat said:

That's it? all the other stuff and that's it? You couldn't even answer the simple question that didn't even have any possible bias?

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What other stuff do you believe is needed for me to reply to?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

TurtleDude said:

why do statists believe that the only progress is MORE Servitude and More Dependency. My vision of progress is children becoming adults and throwing off the need to have government serve as their parents

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I have no idea as I am not a statist who believes that. When you find one please post their answer.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think I'm a hypocrite. Whatever.

I also am very glad that you have yet again reached that brick wall where you are out of actual policy arguments and have to attack me personally for my so-called hypocrisy. You always end up there eventually.

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It is not what I think but rather what you have said about the conflict between what you pretend to profess belief in and the contrary nature of your own personal behaviors and actions. It is that which makes you hypocritical and not my opinion of you.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:

Which is more important: the "right" to discriminate, or freedom from discrimination?

Remember, you can't have both. If a business refuses to serve someone because he's black, and he refuses to leave and the business calls the cops to enforce their "right"...it is at that moment that we have government-enforced racism.

Is that really what we want?

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There is no freedom from discrimination no matter how badly we want it. That freedom does not exist except in the mind. Each and every one of is discriminated against each and every day, mostly without malice and on occasion with. You cannot avoid discrimination, you will be discriminated against till the day you die. We ALL will. Even god discriminates. Are you a sinner? Have you worshiped lately? Nature is the ultimate discriminator. Darwin's law anyone? Only the fittest survive. How about when the orcas play volley ball with the baby seals. Or a mother binging to her kittens a live mouse to play with and eventually eat. What kind of prey do most predators prefer, the young, the infirm. They don't go after the healthy prey unless they have to. There is always going to be discrimination whether from nature or humankind. The reason is simple yet profound. We are each unique individuals, with a unique and individual view of the world, and also individual and unique needs. From that unique perspective one cannot help but be discriminatory. We ALL have preferences and will choose those preferences generally FIRST. You the freedom to discriminate is the freedom of choice. So when we say what is more important the "right to discriminate" or the "freedom from discrimination", what we are really saying is do we have the "right to choose" or the "freedom from choice". That is a very difficult freedom to take away, as you will always have a choice and therefor you will always be discriminatory. Discrimination IS choice, non discrimination is the lack thereof. I shall leave it to you to choose.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:

What other stuff do you believe is needed for me to reply to?

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Well there was the missing word in the last quote. I don't know what his position is