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Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?


  • Total voters
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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Just checking to see if you're always inconsistent, or only in claiming that no harm is done by refusing service.

I've been consistant through out this thread. And there is no harm by refusing to sell an ipod to someone because of their skin color. Unless you consider them being offended as harm? If so, sorry, people do not have a right to not be offended.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Show me where a person has a right to force me to sell them something.

Guy, 200 years ago you didn't have to sell something if you didn't want to...even if you were the only source of what could save that person's life. But MOST of America - not all, but MOST - eventually came to understand that treating people differently in any way just because of how they were born is wrong, simply wrong, and that nobody has any right to discriminate thusly.

The freedom of speech is a god given right.

No problem with that.

The freedom of association is a god given right.

No problem with that.

The freedom to sell my property to who I want to and not sell to who I do not want to sell is also a god given right. It's MY property. Not theirs. I have a right to dictate who I sell it to.

It is your 'right' in YOUR mind, and in the minds of those who think as YOU do. But in the minds of the significant majority of Americans, you have no such 'right'.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I bet you do that often.

Yes, I do. Many people want to delegate to others unpleasant tasks that they don't feel that they themselves have the right to do.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I've been consistant through out this thread. And there is no harm by refusing to sell an ipod to someone because of their skin color.

Of course there is. It's an act of aggression, economic race warfare intended to create a second class citizenry. It's harmful to the free market (fraud) and society as a whole (aggression). It costs them time and inconvenience, and creates a hostile environment.

Do you also support the power company refusing to service blacks when no medical reason for electricity exists? Using lanterns and firewood to boil water is not much more of an inconvenience than needing to drive further down the road or to the next town.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I'm sure that's probably how the Nazi's probably felt, too: "We have a right to tell the Jews that no, we don't want to do business with them!".

But in reality, you have no such right except for in your mind and in the minds of those who believe as you do.

Nice way to godwin there. ;)
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

What harm is there in not selling someone an ipod just because they're <insert skin color here>?

And THAT is the crux of the whole problem - you refuse to see the harm, to even acknowledge the harm.

But fortunately, most of the rest of us DO understand what the harm is, and how it leads to greater harm, to greater injustice.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I asked you whether you think you have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will.

At least I take comfort in the fact that you refuse to answer.

If the law stands that you cannot refuse to do business just because they're of a color that you don't like, that is NOT "violating the body or property of your fellow man". That's simply preventing discrimination and discouraging prejudice. That's simply preventing the seller from violating the rights of his or her prospective customers.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Nice way to godwin there. ;)

You'll notice I violate Godwin's Law but rarely...but you certainly needed to be reminded of where legally-allowed discrimination and prejudice can lead.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Of course there is. It's an act of aggression, economic race warfare intended to create a second class citizenry. It's harmful to the free market (fraud) and society as a whole (aggression). It costs them time and inconvenience, and creates a hostile environment.

Incorrect. You seem to forget that consumers have the same rights. They are well with in their rights to boycott an owner and make them lose business, perhaps even lose the company, due to the racists. It becomes harmful when it is government enforced.

Do you also support the power company refusing to service blacks when no medical reason for electricity exists? Using lanterns and firewood to boil water is not much more of an inconvenience than needing to drive further down the road or to the next town.

If they receive absolutely no government monies then yes. But there isn't one single power company that doesn't recieve government monies, so no. It also depends on availability of firewood. If a person cannot reasonably get firewood then the government has the power to force a power company into providing electricity as without said firewood the person is reasonably in danger of losing their life due to the cold.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

If the law stands that you cannot refuse to do business just because they're of a color that you don't like, that is NOT "violating the body or property of your fellow man".

If, as you state, nobody violates the body or property of the person who discriminates, then there's no actual effect to the law, so then I don't care.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

You'll notice I violate Godwin's Law but rarely...but you certainly needed to be reminded of where legally-allowed discrimination and prejudice can lead.

Except that in Nazi Germany they had government legally enforced discrimination. You'll note that through out this entire thread I have been adamant that the government is not allowed to discriminate. There is a huge difference between government enforced discrimination and private discrimination. Enforced government discrimination has led to countless deaths (not just by nazi's but by a wide variety of races and cultures) and slavery. Which is a violation of peoples rights. Individual discrimination cannot lead to such as there is no force to allow such.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

If, as you state, nobody violates the body or property of the person who discriminates, then there's no actual effect to the law, so then I don't care.

A law that requires that you can't deny your business to someone based just on how they were born is NOT "violating your body or property".
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Except that in Nazi Germany they had government legally enforced discrimination. You'll note that through out this entire thread I have been adamant that the government is not allowed to discriminate. There is a huge difference between government enforced discrimination and private discrimination. Enforced government discrimination has led to countless deaths (not just by nazi's but by a wide variety of races and cultures) and slavery. Which is a violation of peoples rights. Individual discrimination cannot lead to such as there is no force to allow such.

Yet the moment a business owner calls the police to remove the people that that business owner wants to discriminate against, we WOULD have "government legally-enforced discrimination". What do you not understand about that?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Yet the moment a business owner calls the police to remove the people that that business owner wants to discriminate against, we WOULD have "government legally-enforced discrimination". What do you not understand about that?

No, that is the government enforcing peoples rights. There is a difference. The consumer then has the right to picket and protest and boycott that business owner making them lose business. The business owner has no legal recourse at that point. As I've said several times in this thread, there are postives and negatives that are inherent in Rights. So long as no other rights are infringed then those negatives are just something that has to be tolerated. Otherwise freedom is lost.

Would you make the same statement if someone refused a person of a different color entry into their homes?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

A law that requires that you can't deny your business to someone based just on how they were born is NOT "violating your body or property".

Yes, actually it is. It is telling you what to do with your property. "Sell it (your property) to this person or get punished."
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Just because you're an "individual person" (which also applies to ALL other people) doesn't give you some kind of "right" to discriminate against others. If a thing you do does deliberate harm to other people - as discrimination certainly does - then you do NOT somehow have a right to do that thing.

glen i have a right to discriminate..i don't have to like you , deal with you ,trade with you, associate with you, and you have no exercisable rights on my property to stop me.

why are you insisting on forcing something on me..i do not wish to do?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

You'll notice I violate Godwin's Law but rarely...but you certainly needed to be reminded of where legally-allowed discrimination and prejudice can lead.

False comparison. The Nazi's made the discrimination a mandated part of the legal system, which we are very much against. At no point have any of us supported government mandated discrimination which is what both the Nazi's and the Jim Crow laws did. There is a major difference between allowing discrimination and requiring it.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

If I was talking of a different type of servitude then why is it that 1: you did not actually address what I said? and 2: how could I use your own definitions and apply them as I have?

BTW: you're making a strawman by trying to focus only on police. They are a part of the government and as such are not allowed, nor should they ever be allowed, to discriminate. Plus they are employee's, not business owners. Which is our topic of discussion.



But you are forcing them to either serve someone or go out of business, or not be able to exercise their right to start and run their own business. You are forcing them to either choose to live a certain way or get punished. And you are denying them the right to association. People have a right to go into business for themselves so long as that business does not interfere in other peoples rights. Denying to serve someone is not violating anyones right as no one has a right to force people to sell their property to them. I met and answered and applied your definition of servitude to store owners. Yet you still discount it...actually you ignored it. You didn't once address my points. Just went off on another point, partially repeating yourself.


No, someone else try to explain the difference. You didn't seem to follow it. I said said it wasn't the same thing. You said they were. I them explained the difference.

Now, if you'll concede the difference we can move on, as I said.

And no, they have manly laws to follow when they choose to go into business. It's the nature if business. Now, you don't have to go into business. No one makes you. But when you choose to, as with many other professions, you accept that you will have to follow the rules. So, you have choice, and you get compensated. So in no way is it servitude.

Btw, denying them service does interfere with their rights. We have a long history on this to draw from. We only have to look at it see the effect of such denials.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

No, that is the government enforcing peoples rights. There is a difference.

And THAT is where you are confusing your personal opinion with the reality of human nature. It does. not. matter. whether you are right are wrong - REPEAT, it does. not. matter. whether you are right or wrong.

Why?

Because you are forgetting that when it comes to human nature - particularly with the masses - perception IS reality. Pass a bill that allows discrimination, and the first time it occurs - and occur it will - the video of it will be spread across the planet in a matter of minutes. And what will happen then? Riots in the area of the discriminating business...and all the problems and danger that goes along with riots.

Hatred between the races will grow as a direct result. More people will die. And the hatred and spite that is ever-so-slowly going away from the time of Jim Crow will come roaring back. Do you think I'm exaggerating? We had more riots across the nation during the 1960's than at any other comparable period in American history. Think about it, guy - the PERCEPTION among nonwhites, and among blacks in particular, would be that we ARE going back to Jim Crow...and all your twisted logic to the contrary won't make a tinker's damn of a difference. The PERCEPTION is all that really matters...and suddenly you've got over ten million blacks - and tens of millions more of Hispanics - who will have the PERCEPTION that White America is turning against them...and they will not sit idly or peacefully by and allow it to happen.

But hey - as you and yours get shot at, at least you'll be able to tell your wife and children as they're ducking from bullets, "See? Now we've got REAL freedom!" I'm suuuure they'd much rather have that than being able to walk down the street in peace, huh?

Sometimes, guy, "freedom" ain't what you think it is.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Yes, actually it is. It is telling you what to do with your property. "Sell it (your property) to this person or get punished."

And later when you're getting beat into the ground by a bunch of blacks that you refused to sell to because they are black, I guess it will be very comforting to tell yourself that you were just "standing up for your rights". I'm sure that is worth the broken bones, the blood spilling out onto the sidewalk, and the heartbreak your family would feel. But hey - at least your "property and body weren't getting violated", right?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

glen i have a right to discriminate..i don't have to like you , deal with you ,trade with you, associate with you, and you have no exercisable rights on my property to stop me.

why are you insisting on forcing something on me..i do not wish to do?

You're absolutely right! You do NOT have to have anything whatsoever to do with me - as long as it's because you hate my guts, or because you think the way I dress will cause undue disruption to your business, or if I don't have money. BUT if you refuse to deal with me because of how I was BORN, then, sir, you have a problem with the law.

What a wonderful thread this has been, getting the racists on DP to expose themselves...and every. single. one. of them are on the Right.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

False comparison. The Nazi's made the discrimination a mandated part of the legal system, which we are very much against. At no point have any of us supported government mandated discrimination which is what both the Nazi's and the Jim Crow laws did. There is a major difference between allowing discrimination and requiring it.

Perception, guy. Perception. That's all that matters in dealing with the human masses. You can claim "well, ha-rumph, we're not requiring it, we're only allowing it" all you want...

...but the MASSES will see something else entirely, and all your protestations to the contrary won't make a difference.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

You're absolutely right! You do NOT have to have anything whatsoever to do with me - as long as it's because you hate my guts, or because you think the way I dress will cause undue disruption to your business, or if I don't have money. BUT if you refuse to deal with me because of how I was BORN, then, sir, you have a problem with the law.

What a wonderful thread this has been, getting the racists on DP to expose themselves...and every. single. one. of them are on the Right.

i cant refuse to deal, with you?, so i cant just stand there an do nothing?

racist on DP exposed?........so we are down to that now, the same of leftest line."

you're a hateful racist bigot, sexist, homophobic, poor hater, gerrymandering, ring wing gun carrying nut, rich evil greedy selfish, no tax, flag waving redneck, oppressing, discriminatory bastard.

did i cover everything, or did i miss something.....knowing how the left feeds on things like this i probably did.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

A law that requires that you can't deny your business to someone based just on how they were born is NOT "violating your body or property".

I don't see how you can deny that such a law would result in the violation of body and property. I think you are deluding yourself.

Do you think you have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will?
 
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