Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

votemout said:

ummm what???? having a few drinks and blunts tonight?

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Your confusion is no surprise to me. I'm not gonna try to educate you so...

Good day.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

whats more important is equality period.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:

Its one thing to force someone via laws and government intervention. Its quite another when its done by private individuals. The government has no right to force someone to serve another. Individuals have rights (which I already outlined previously) which can allow them to try to force them to. Note the word "try" there. Just because private individuals try to boycott something does not mean that they will succeed. Abortion clinics are proof of that.

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You're prior argument says I'm acting like a king if I simply want to buy a product and then take recourse via government law if the owner refuses my transaction due to race. Now your saying I'm not acting like a king by trying to force business away? Why is that? Either way I have a right correct? So, this really doesn't have to do with rights but rather fear of government?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:

You're prior argument says I'm acting like a king if I simply want to buy a product and then take recourse via government law if the owner refuses my transaction due to race. Now your saying I'm not acting like a king by trying to force business away? Why is that? Either way I have a right correct? So, this really doesn't have to do with rights but rather fear of government?

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Incorrect. You have a currently allowed priviledge to sue someone that refuses you service based on your skin color. You do not have a right to not be discriminated against. Indeed, your right to boycott + freedom of speech + freedom of association proves that you do not have a right to not be discriminated against. All of those Rights that I just mentioned in that last sentence benefit both you and the owner, and both also have a negative to both you and the owner.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

I'm talking about racism (real racism, by the majority, not white people crying like little babies about crap with no impact at the societal level). I don't know what you're talking about. From what I can tell, you're denying that real racism exists.

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Well i have read this "sentence" like 6 times and it makes no sense at all. so lets break this down.


"I'm talking about racism" 6 years ago i did not even think about racism. Living in Tn and seeing me and others working with black people daily. seeing white and blacks intermarry did not look racist to me maybe the world you live in looks different? I see white people going to NFL and NBA games wearing jersey of black players. Do you not see the same world as I see?



I'm talking about racism "(real racism, by the majority," Real racism? i can show you real racism but since you threw that from the majority line its obvious you meant from white people. Well lets see your proof of this modern day racism you claim. i mean i see a black president, and many black elected officials all over this land you so proudly call racist.

I'm talking about racism (real racism, by the majority, "not white people crying like little babies about crap with no impact at the societal level)"

That whole statement just screams racism.

I'm talking about racism (real racism, by the majority, not white people crying like little babies about crap with no impact at the societal level). I don't know what you're talking about. From what I can tell, you're denying that real racism exists

From what i can tell your denying that real racism exists, you think that racism only exists against black people. When all i hear is racist remarks from black people. to be honest 6 years ago i was not a racist helped every person of color i could in some way shape or fashion. now?I am so sick of hearing this garbage after 6 years.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:

If you wanted people to be treated equally then you would support punishing a person that refused to buy from a business owner due to their race. Do you? I personally don't. That violates freedom of speech and their right to association.

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You're not addressing me, but I find it disturbing that you think posing this question is legitimate. It shows that you either have no understanding of why the civil rights act was passed, or you accidentally typed random letters that formed your post and then accidentally hit the "post reply" button.

Anti-discrimination laws exist because of the ongoing racial tension during the pre-civil rights era. Black Americans weren't merely tiffed about Jim Crow, they were suffering and treated as sub-human. Black people were not allowed to go to the best schools, or get good jobs. Everything else aside, those two things ruined generations of Black families in America. The civil rights act wasn't passed because, in theory, everybody should be treated as equal and thus the evil government started forcing innocent business owners to "engage in commerce." The civil rights act was passed because it had to be passed unless we were going to continue to allow unconscionable things to happen all over our nation. No decent, thinking human being should be able to make the argument that the civil rights act was a mistake. Your theoretical questions are irrelevant in view of the horrors that sparked anti-discrimination laws.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

votemout said:

Well i have read this "sentence" like 6 times and it makes no sense at all. so lets break this down.

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Let's not. I said good day.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:

what you and others believe is governments can create laws, to take away people rights, b....

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Absolutely! I believe that individuals in power can and will create laws and take away people's rights. I also believe it is essential to keep that constantly in mind. That is what democracy, balance of power and due process are all about. But alone those are not enough. The citizen must always keep a watchful eye out for shenanigans. And one of those that is dangerous is preventing minorities from expressing their opinions.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Let's not. I said good day.

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well since you obviously pick out sentences and not whole discussions here it is
Well i have read this "sentence" like 6 times and it makes no sense at all. so lets break this down.


"I'm talking about racism" 6 years ago i did not even think about racism. Living in Tn and seeing me and others working with black people daily. seeing white and blacks intermarry did not look racist to me maybe the world you live in looks different? I see white people going to NFL and NBA games wearing jersey of black players. Do you not see the same world as I see?



I'm talking about racism "(real racism, by the majority," Real racism? i can show you real racism but since you threw that from the majority line its obvious you meant from white people. Well lets see your proof of this modern day racism you claim. i mean i see a black president, and many black elected officials all over this land you so proudly call racist.

I'm talking about racism (real racism, by the majority, "not white people crying like little babies about crap with no impact at the societal level)"

That whole statement just screams racism.

I'm talking about racism (real racism, by the majority, not white people crying like little babies about crap with no impact at the societal level). I don't know what you're talking about. From what I can tell, you're denying that real racism exists

From what i can tell your denying that real racism exists, you think that racism only exists against black people. When all i hear is racist remarks from black people. to be honest 6 years ago i was not a racist helped every person of color i could in some way shape or fashion. now?I am so sick of hearing this garbage after 6 years.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

So you demand absolute uniformity, or the confusion is too great for you to overcome. That's such a strong position; very convincing.

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How exactly were you able to read that into my words?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

joG said:

How exactly were you able to read that into my words?

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...

joG said:

Not at all. I didn't say that I cannot tell the difference between positions. I do, however, believe that other people have different oppinions on the basis of other inputs and what else. I believe that any of us can be wrong and that therfore in normal times a society is better served, if it allows equal opportunity of expression.

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So, unless everyone agrees (including dumbass racists), then I guess we just gotta let the power company refuse service to blacks. That's stupid. That's not logic or reason, it's apologizing for and accommodating racists.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

...

So, unless everyone agrees (including dumbass racists), then I guess we just gotta let the power company refuse service to blacks. That's stupid. That's not logic or reason, it's apologizing for and accommodating racists.

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I guess, if one were incapable of differentiating situations, one could believe that.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

joG said:

I guess, if one were incapable of differentiating situations, one could believe that.

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Using lanterns and firewood to boil water is not much more of an inconvenience than needing to go to a store or service that's farther away or in the next town. Two people in this thread are explicitly ok with the power company denying electricity to blacks, though one would not allow it in the case of electric medical equipment being needed. The other says 'too bad' on the equipment. These are the people you apologize for and support.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Using lanterns and firewood to boil water is not much more of an inconvenience than needing to go to a store or service that's farther away or in the next town. Two people in this thread are explicitly ok with the power company denying electricity to blacks, though one would not allow it in the case of electric medical equipment being needed. The other says 'too bad' on the equipment. These are the people you apologize for and support.

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I believe I touched on that problem somewhere earlier in the thread and proposed a tentative solution. Of course you can't exclude people from basic supplies.
Can you discriminate for financial reasons? What do you think?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

It would be curious to know the racial breakdown of the 21 people who think the Freedom to Discriminate is more important.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

joG said:

I believe I touched on that problem somewhere earlier in the thread and proposed a tentative solution. Of course you can't exclude people from basic supplies.

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I see, so this isn't about principle. A little inconvenience is ok. Going to a store farther away or the vet in the next town is fine. After all, shouldn't we accommodate racists in their economic race war at least just a little? Yeah, just a little economic race war never hurt anyone, right?

Can you discriminate for financial reasons? What do you think?

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You're gonna have to be more specific.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

You're gonna have to be more specific.

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Exactly. eace

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

RogueWarrior said:

It would be curious to know the racial breakdown of the 21 people who think the Freedom to Discriminate is more important.

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You mean to say that you think people talk their own book?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

votemout said:

ummm what???? having a few drinks and blunts tonight?

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Where did that come from?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

joG said:

Exactly. eace

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Because it is sometimes just to discriminate based on financial considerations (like someone not offering the asking price), it is sometimes just to discriminate based on race? That's nonsense.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Mustachio said:

You're not addressing me, but I find it disturbing that you think posing this question is legitimate. It shows that you either have no understanding of why the civil rights act was passed, or you accidentally typed random letters that formed your post and then accidentally hit the "post reply" button.

Anti-discrimination laws exist because of the ongoing racial tension during the pre-civil rights era. Black Americans weren't merely tiffed about Jim Crow, they were suffering and treated as sub-human. Black people were not allowed to go to the best schools, or get good jobs. Everything else aside, those two things ruined generations of Black families in America. The civil rights act wasn't passed because, in theory, everybody should be treated as equal and thus the evil government started forcing innocent business owners to "engage in commerce." The civil rights act was passed because it had to be passed unless we were going to continue to allow unconscionable things to happen all over our nation. No decent, thinking human being should be able to make the argument that the civil rights act was a mistake. Your theoretical questions are irrelevant in view of the horrors that sparked anti-discrimination laws.

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I know exactly why they were passed. They are no longer needed. I know I know, blacks and hispanics etc etc are still being discriminated against. As i've said before, not near as much today as many would have people believe. Now it is a detriment. People need to start standing on their own and taking responsibility for their actions. Not keep running to Big Daddy Government to help bail them out of tough situations.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Because it is sometimes just to discriminate based on financial considerations (like someone not offering the asking price), it is sometimes just to discriminate based on race? That's nonsense.

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That is one of those point of view things generalization tends to support.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:

Sounds more like modern day feudalism to me.

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Not really. You're not being given leave to reside on my land in exchange for labor. This is far removed from any sort of feudalism.

rabbitcaebannog said:

No, freedom of association doesn't mean freedom to shut people out of business activities.

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And yet the buyer can shut the seller out of the transaction just as easily as the seller can shut out the buyer. Still on equal footing.

rabbitcaebannog said:

Why? Because I wanted to purchase an item? Wanting to purchase something does not mean I am a king.

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Nor is wanting to sell something. If as a white guy I go to a white guy and he refuses to sell me something, but is willing to sell to others it is no different. The fact that you can force a sale is what is the issue.

Damn don't you people sleep? Not as many pages as the night before, but still.... Apologies if I covered again something already covered.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:

Incorrect. You have a currently allowed priviledge to sue someone that refuses you service based on your skin color. You do not have a right to not be discriminated against. Indeed, your right to boycott + freedom of speech + freedom of association proves that you do not have a right to not be discriminated against. All of those Rights that I just mentioned in that last sentence benefit both you and the owner, and both also have a negative to both you and the owner.

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Why don't people have a right to be treated as an equal? When you discriminate you are not treating someone as an equal but inferior to yourself (general you). Why should someone have a right to treat another person as inferior? The answer is we can't under the Civil Rights Act. People do have rights to protect themselves from being treated as an inferior. It shouldn't matter where that person is being treated as an inferior. It's really that simple. People will take recourse if they feel their rights are violated. Yes, that is their right.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

maquiscat said:

Not really. You're not being given leave to reside on my land in exchange for labor. This is far removed from any sort of feudalism.



And yet the buyer can shut the seller out of the transaction just as easily as the seller can shut out the buyer. Still on equal footing.



Nor is wanting to sell something. If as a white guy I go to a white guy and he refuses to sell me something, but is willing to sell to others it is no different. The fact that you can force a sale is what is the issue.

Damn don't you people sleep? Not as many pages as the night before, but still.... Apologies if I covered again something already covered.

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It's never equal footing when someone can withhold resources from you due to something you can't change. That is called power over a person. That kind of power is illegal.