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Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?


  • Total voters
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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

The original meaning of the term did in fact refer to rights, but under the current meaning of the term, it does not.

What?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

If there's one thing I've found, it's that every single person who cries out that America is a tyranny or this or that American political party wants a tyranny...has precisely zero clue as to what a tyranny is.

And no, in the cases to which I refer, the government's not "using injustice" - sometimes it's war, and sometimes it's business as usual, and sometimes it's doing the bidding of the mega-corporations...but you, sir, have rights only until the USA (or whatever nation you happen to be in) decides it's in the best interest of the nation to take those rights away. Sorry, guy, but that's reality.


well lets replay what you and i discussed...you asked me question of history, and its founders, and law..i provided the answers, which you cannot rebutt........now you tell me i know nothing.......hmmmmmm .strange!
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I think it's great if one wants to better themselves. What does that have to do with denying someone the right to buy a bottle of water in your store because you don't like my attributes?

Simple. If the sellers doesn't find it in their interest to trade with you then they will not be motivated to take part in a transaction with you.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Nope, then they are using their body to create a product which at no time is part of the creator's body. I'm strictly talking about direct sale of one's actual body, not the same at all.

What do you think the sale of labor is?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Sure. "Open to the public" does not mean absolutely anyone who wants to be there can be there any time they like (unless that's the way the owner of the place wants it). You understand this, yes?

Um, actually, "open to the public" DOES mean anyone (who does not present a danger or undue disruption to the business) CAN come in any time they like. And whether you like it or not, being of a different color is NOT an "undue disruption" of the business.

For your edification, a legal definition of "public":

Pertaining to a state, nation, or whole community; proceeding from, re- lating to, or affecting the whole body of people or an entire community. Open to all; notorious. Common to all or many; general ; open to common use. Morgan v. Cree, 46 Vt. 786, 14 Am. Rep. 640; Crane v. Waters (C. C.) 10 Fed. 621; Austin v. Soule, 36 Vt. 650; Appeal of Eliot, 74 Coun. 586, 51 Atl. 558; 0′IIara v. Miller, 1 Kulp (Pa.) 295.

Sorry, but I don't see any exceptions there for people of different colors.

I'm pretty sure my town had such a thing, but not in my lifetime. We had plenty of racists. I was one of them when I was a kid. Know what changed my mind? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't being forced to hang around a black guy by law.

You're the only one I've ever seen other than myself who ever owned up to being a racist in his or her youth. Kudos to you - that's not always an easy admission. That said, it wasn't a lynching that changed my mind, either - it was a career in the Navy, finding out first-hand that people all over the world are the same (with allowances for local culture).
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

well lets replay what you and i discussed...you asked me question of history, and its founders, and law..i provided the answers, which you cannot rebutt........now you tell me i know nothing.......hmmmmmm .strange!

The fact that you did not accept my rebuttal as such doesn't mean I didn't effectively rebut you - it only means you didn't accept it.

And speaking of strange, you oh-so-seriously warn of tyranny is what the Left wants, yet you're the one with what certainly looks like a picture of a soldier of the Wehrmacht as an avatar, and your "location" is "on the battlefield pointing my Luger". Judging by your name, you're probably German - though that's by no means any guarantee - and maybe you're just proud of Germany's military past...

...but if you're as staunchly against tyranny as your words indicate, I find it strange that your avatar and "location" are such as they are.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

You said your problem with just and unjust discrimination is your own inability to differentiate between the two, and that this has lead you to an absolutist position.

Not at all. I didn't say that I cannot tell the difference between positions. I do, however, believe that other people have different oppinions on the basis of other inputs and what else. I believe that any of us can be wrong and that therfore in normal times a society is better served, if it allows equal opportunity of expression.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

SPEECH is not the same thing as "You can't eat in this restaurant because you're black".

The action is irrelevant. If something is based in racism and the government needs to step in to protect someone's right to that action, be it speech or denying access to private property, then by your logic it is government enforced racism.

I believe that govt-supported discrimination is wrong and should continue to be illegal.

I think it might be better worded as discrimination by government and government mandated discrimination. Outside of business, I can be racist and discriminatory till the cows come home and the government has to support my right to be so. Which is why the whole argument of "government enforced racism" is bunk when applied to rights of individuals.

...but if they acquire a business license (which gives certain rights, like limited liability) then they have to conform to some laws such as no discrimination against certain classes.

That's it, its no big deal and nobody is losing anything since they don't have to volunteer to get a business license anyway. That's life, there is a trade off and people act like its some sort of horrible thing that they have to make a trade off.

I think that there are very few people who argue what the law is in regards to business licenses. What is being argued is whether or not those laws are proper. Some are arguing that it is a violation of private property rights and freedom of association to have such laws that require non-discrimination. Laws exist regardless of whether or not rights are being violated. Blacks' rights were being violated the entire time that slavery existed, yet the laws were there.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Not at all. I didn't say that I cannot tell the difference between positions. I do, however, believe that other people have different oppinions on the basis of other inputs and what else. I believe that any of us can be wrong and that therfore in normal times a society is better served, if it allows equal opportunity of expression.

what you and others believe is governments can create laws, to take away people rights, because a person gets his feeling hurt thru discrimination which is not a rights violation, ..you also want to deny right to property, and act as though it does not exist, even thought it does in our founding documents. your position is based on emotional content, and not supreme law, you seek to rule by majority instead of constitutional law , or rule of law, its very sad, when people do not understand basic constitutional law, once they taught civics, of coarse it used to be called "American government" in school, ..however the education system has become a joke!
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Actually it's because he supports your right to be a bigot, which you have chosen to be with this statement. You have every right to be a bigot, but's it's not flattering.

What the heck do you mean by "which you have chosen to be with this statement"?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

So many people are mistaken about the effects of discrimination. Multiple posts have referred to the effects of discrimination as being merely "offensive," implying that the only reason we have these laws are so that minorities won't be upset about not being served. No, discrimination would literally destroy lives. So believe whatever you want, but remember that when you argue that we should do away with anti-discrimination laws, you're advocating for a system under which people are allowed to die when they would be saved if they were white, or christian, or straight. Is that a system you'd call just?

So many people are mistaken about the effects of allowing the government to discriminate. Multiple posts have referred to things like "the public interest" and "the greater good", implying that the government has to discriminate in order to improve society. No, allowing the government to discriminate literally destroys lives. So believe whatever you want, but remember that when you argue in favor of allowing the government to discriminate, you're advocating for a system under which we're all equal, but some are more equal than others. You could call it a just system, but only if the government says it is.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Maybe in your world "open to the public doesn't equal public", but in America, "open to the public" means that ANYONE can walk in there.

No. It really doesn't mean that. If you own the place and you ask someone to leave, it's no longer open to that person.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

It's not legal rhetoric. It's simple ethics.

Nobody has the right to violate the body or property of his neighbor to coerce him to do business against his will. It's unjust. One cannot achieve justice by acting unjustly.

That's why, despite the fact that I abhor discrimination, I can't justify choosing to initiate aggression in order to prevent it. The initiation of aggression is not the answer. I would choose another way.

You peacenik hippy. Why won't you join us in using the hammer of tolerance to beat these racists into submission?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

And speaking of strange, you oh-so-seriously warn of tyranny is what the Left wants, yet you're the one with what certainly looks like a picture of a soldier of the Wehrmacht as an avatar, and your "location" is "on the battlefield pointing my Luger". Judging by your name, you're probably German - though that's by no means any guarantee - and maybe you're just proud of Germany's military past...

...but if you're as staunchly against tyranny as your words indicate, I find it strange that your avatar and "location" are such as they are.

i don't find this strange at all, every time i argue with some on the left and once with someone on the right, and i do it long enough ,that person soon turns to nazis, and talking about me personally......hmmmm could it be you have been left in the dust, with your logic, and cannot argue against the founders ,the constitution, and rights.....that you must go in that direction.......:doh
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

i already told you.....

its 1858, you work for me, and i tell you to go do something, and you give me lip.........i tell you shut the fvck up and get out dont come back......what are you going to do about it?.....nothing....so i exercised free of speech to a max degree.

today........ if i told you that, you would run to a federal agency, and complain, and i would be investigated by government, and paid fines to government, and you would sue me for a million bucks and claim i hurt you emotionally...thru the freedom of speech in 1858 is more than 2014.

Really? What do you think would have happened in 1858 had you displayed what our modern pornography shows? What do you think would have happened if you went to your child's school and told them that no, they can't use taxpayer money to celebrate 'Christmas'? What do you think would have happened if you burned an American flag in public?

No, the freedom of speech then doesn't even come close to what we have now.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Really? What do you think would have happened in 1858 had you displayed what our modern pornography shows? What do you think would have happened if you went to your child's school and told them that no, they can't use taxpayer money to celebrate 'Christmas'? What do you think would have happened if you burned an American flag in public?

No, the freedom of speech then doesn't even come close to what we have now.


sorry, you asked to name something and i did, and clearly that expression of speech of 1858 is far greater than it is today...today i would be fined and sued.....and you know that.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

voting under the founders was not a right, its a privilege, because the founders knew the poor, and their [always is the poor] would use their vote, to take money and property from those who have it......it you paid taxes and had property, you could vote because your contributing to society.

And you think we should go back to that?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

And you think we should go back to that?

i am arguing right to property, which you do not recognize ,even though the constitution does.


when it comes to work, i want contract law, of the founders....you sign a contract to do, and anything not in it ....you are free to do.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I'm not making an unjustly demand. You're open for business. I'm acting respectful and will pay what you want for your product. Why can't I buy it? The man in front of me did and so did the man behind me. Please explain.

It's Thursday and I only sell to the first and third customers on Thursday. It's my religion, so I'm going to sue you for violating my civil rights.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

So many people are mistaken about the effects of allowing the government to discriminate. Multiple posts have referred to things like "the public interest" and "the greater good", implying that the government has to discriminate in order to improve society. No, allowing the government to discriminate literally destroys lives. So believe whatever you want, but remember that when you argue in favor of allowing the government to discriminate, you're advocating for a system under which we're all equal, but some are more equal than others. You could call it a just system, but only if the government says it is.

Wait. Who is advocating for the government to be allowed to discriminate? Last I checked the argument was that individuals should be allowed to discriminate even within the confines of their private business. I'll admit that there are a lot of post that I have not read because you guys are blowing up this thread and there a ton of new pages that posted both between when I went to bed last night and waking up this morning, and between my leaving for work and getting home tonight. It's hard to keep up with it all.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

And the blacks would walk in and demand service, the business owner would call the cops and they would be forced to enforce the law by physically removing the blacks...and reporters would be getting the whole thing on tape and it would be viewed around the world literally in less than a minute.

And what would happen then? I think you know. How many innocent people would die in the ensuing riots? And is that really where you want America to go?

I don't know. How many people have died because we allow the westboro baptist church to be hateful idiots. They've been at that for a long time. Or are you saying there will only be riots because we're talking about black people instead of gay people or the families of dead soldiers...because that would be a racist thing to say.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

It's Thursday and I only sell to the first and third customers on Thursday. It's my religion, so I'm going to sue you for violating my civil rights.

That's fine because you're not discriminating based on a person's attributes.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Guy, it does. not. matter. what YOUR ethical beliefs are. The worst mistake people make is, "well, everything would be better if"...and then they go using whatever rhetoric to back up what they think is eminently logical.

You mean something like this:

Well, everything would be better if we just outlawed discrimination

I guess you can have your freedom from discrimination, but you can't make any choices for yourself if we all have freedom from discrimination.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

So, you're aware of this. That makes your claim a lie and not just ignorance.



You fail to comprehend. They are capable, as evidenced by their success despite oppression and poverty.



So, when a black needs to go to a different store, it's too bad for them; however, when a white needs to go to a different school it's injustice. What hypocrisy.

Do you even read any of the words on the page before responding to people's posts? I certainly don't see any evidence of comprehension.
 
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